Jessica van der Hoek on psychedelics - big dreams- horse therapy trauma - tattoos

introduction: 0:07

fYou're listening to fascinating women with Mark Laurie. And now, Mark Laurie.

Mark Laurie: 0:14

Hello, everyone. This is Mark Laurie here from fascinating women. Now usually, as I mentioned before, you'll find me behind the camera photographing these wonderful, wonderful creatures. But today I have Jessica van der Hoek here with me. And we're going to explore her background, which is really kind of cool and interesting. So Jessica, welcome.

Jessica van der Hoek: 0:34

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Mark Laurie: 0:37

So you've got a storied background? You've been around quite a bit. You work with charities?

Jessica van der Hoek: 0:42

Yes.

Mark Laurie: 0:43

What put you in the past to do this kind of thing. When you were a kid? Did you wake up going, Ah, I'm gonna start a charity.

Unknown: 0:47

Yeah, you know what? Honestly, it was from childhood. I was bullied really badly when I was in elementary school. And I really wanted to spend time with horses, right. And so one of the ways that my mom thought this would be a good idea is to have me volunteer at the Lethbridge handicap riding Association, so that maybe I could make some friends and I came out of the womb loving horses. And this was a way for me to be around horses and to learn about them and to potentially be able to ride them. So I signed up as a volunteer when I was 12. And did that for two years. And that that experience really stuck with me, obviously into adulthood. Because, you know, when the opportunity came up, I was like, I know exactly what I'm going to do. So it kind of did come from for being a kid. But of course, when you're 12, you never think in a million years that you'll run your own charity and have all your own horses, right? It's just a dream

Mark Laurie: 1:46

that points like, like riding a horse was to be my excuse.

Jessica van der Hoek: 1:50

How do I get close to them? What are the lessons

Mark Laurie: 1:53

you learned that age with your horse? Hmm.

Unknown: 1:56

Horses are very non judgmental. They can provide a lot of emotional support and comfort. They can help you figure out who you are. And they can really help you boost your self esteem and your sense of self. Which of course, when you're a teenager, you're still developing right? And even into adulthood. I mean, I could do a whole hour on why horses? So but yeah, those are the things I learned as a kid from them. Yeah.

Mark Laurie: 2:30

Well, what kind of successes do you have on your kid that sort of shaped your viewpoints today?

Jessica van der Hoek: 2:35

Ah, that's an interesting question. Because I didn't have any really, I had a lot of trauma and a lot of failures as

Mark Laurie: 2:45

So, what kind of trauma failures did you have?

Unknown: 2:48

I grew up in a home with a mother who was mentally ill. I grew up in a home where I was the parent and had to look after my siblings. I was bullied mercilessly for many, many, many years until I started fighting back. My parents got divorced. And, you know, dealing with a mother who has a mental health illness, right on its own comes with a lot of issues, right? There's a lot of brain development, that doesn't happen. There's a lot of parenting and nurturing and skills that you don't learn as a child that you have to figure out as an adult. There's a lot of neglect. Yeah, a lot of parental education. So that was really difficult for me. So I got to experience a lot of trauma and a lot of failures as a child. I didn't really get to experience any success.

Mark Laurie: 3:41

So you kind of missed your childhood to a degree.

Jessica van der Hoek: 3:43

I didn't have one.

Mark Laurie: 3:43

Yeah, that would be a whole superhero backstory, by the way. Here's hoping the time will come. How did you I mean, some people hit those, those trauma and those failures, and their lives are destroyed, you find them in some pretty dark places in the darkened areas, the streets. You didn't go that way. What did you find inside that let you overcome that?

Unknown: 4:13

I think for me personally, it was the knowledge that my life was always meant to be bigger than myself. So how do I not have that mindset that I need to do something bigger than myself, I think I wouldn't have explored life outside of being traumatized. And picking a career very early on gave me a sense of purpose. And even though that career became very traumatizing to me as an adult, there's a theme here. It also gave me a sense of purpose in my younger years that I think if I hadn't had it would have been very easy for me to you know, go off the rails, so to speak. But because I had that, and I had a plan for myself, and I had a passion I was able to follow that. Now, having said that, I did crash and burn at some point in my life and I did live you know in the proverbial emotional and mental gutter for quite a few years. But I think what prevented me from spiraling and potentially becoming a drug addict and going that route was the fact that I did have passions. And I did want to live a life bigger than myself.

Mark Laurie: 5:15

So that's an interesting term because that's, that is a common thread among a lot of people who have gone on to greatness. And where that emerged, I did emerge from a pretty good TV show, Spider Man said this, because we're gonna kick these days. Where did that emerge from? Like, how did you get that perspective from that background?

Unknown: 5:35

You know, that's a great question. And I can't honestly tell you a specific time or place where I made up my mind, I think I was just kind of born that way. I can't give myself any credit for that. Because it wasn't a choice to me. It just, it's, I was born that that way.

Mark Laurie: 5:50

That was a viewpoint that there's something there's a difference.

Unknown: 5:54

And I think maybe, maybe it was being the oldest of four children and being responsible for them. It was just kind of always a thing that, you know, if I think about it, maybe that mentality was as a result of trauma, right? The being responsible for three other kids being responsible for your mentally ill mother being responsible for everyone in the house. It never got to ever just be about me. So doing something just for me has never ever crossed my mind. And maybe that's actually something to explore. You know, on the on the self love Journey. Maybe my urge to have a life bigger than myself isn't as altruistic as I want it to be. Know what I mean?

Mark Laurie: 6:36

Yeah, it's a funny catchphrase. Because for a lot of, for some people, a lot of people, a bigger life has trappings with it. Like some people think my bigger life would be this big house on a on a hillside and you all these financial things are, you know, gold neighbored things and then for other people is like, no, it's quiet vacation someplace. Nobody has demands?

Unknown: 7:00

That would be lovely. Oh my gosh, that would be that'd be heaven on earth. I mean,

Mark Laurie: 7:07

do you have any slogans or phrases that have kind of you sort of hung on to over the years that this returned to that and gave you strength or clarified your viewpoint?

Unknown: 7:15

Yes, one of the big ones for me is the ability to forgive myself, because I have been, I've said it, I didn't realize I said it a lot. But it was the the phrase when you know better, you can do better. Okay. And that was a really a way of just allowing myself to understand that I didn't know any better. And so I did the very best I could, at times, if I look back on my life, I can, you know, potentially experience some shame or some regrets. And rather than going down that rabbit hole for too too long, I just remind myself, I actually didn't know any better. And now that I know better, I can do better. So it's a way of reaffirming to myself that I still have the rest of my life. To do better now that I know better.

Mark Laurie: 7:59

So I've heard that phrase. I've heard probably variations, but it made me it makes it as well as things like oh, yeah, that resonates. That's really good. It's something that I remember talking about my parents, other people I work with is there, when you're whatever you do when you're growing up, and at any stage in life as well. That's all you have whatever information you have at the time and belief. And the belief is that everybody is not always true. But I think for the most part, everybody around you, is doing the best they can with the best intentions they have, with the knowledge and skill set how they see the world. And you really can't fault them for that. I mean, they just

Unknown: 8:36

No. And honestly, that mentality allows you to have compassion, and acceptance in places where you might feel angry or frustrated or resistance to something. So in general, I think it's a good attitude to try and adopt

Mark Laurie: 8:52

this kind of on the lines of you. How's it phrase? goes? If you it's not what happens to you. It's how you react to it

Jessica van der Hoek: 9:01

A hundred Percent.

Mark Laurie: 9:01

And that's it's sort of a read someone's a forgiveness version of that,

Jessica van der Hoek: 9:05

if you will. Yeah, absolutely.

Mark Laurie: 9:08

is neat. That was pretty good. And so when did you start? When did you like leave home and become, you're on your journey to your Raider things?

Unknown: 9:16

I was 17. Yeah, yeah, I was fighting a lot with my dad. My mom had thrown me out of the house. And basically it said, you're on your own. I can't deal with you anymore. And so I thought I knew better. You know, I thought, well, I've had to be an adult. My entire childhood. I know better than these two. Right? I'm smarter than both my parents. To some extent I was my dad. No, you know, he knew better. So I was 17 when I struck out on my own and just decided that I could take care of myself better than I was being taken care of.

Mark Laurie: 9:47

Okay, so picture of that. So what year was that?

Jessica van der Hoek: 9:50

1997 97 You're such a young

Mark Laurie: 9:53

pup so what did that look like? I mean, you've got to find food to eat. You gotta have a place to stay. There's all manner of vultures kind of out there floating. I want to put it that look like you stepped to the front door. You've got your suitcase duffel bag, what's your next step?

Unknown: 10:10

It looked. It was awful. It was really not a great time in my life. I was very lucky that my dad did help me go to school. So immediately I enrolled in my EMR, which is the very first step of becoming a paramedic. But I had no experience in the workforce. So I was fired from multiple jobs, because I just didn't know how to be there. I had really toxic relationships with men because I'd never been taught how to have a healthy relationship. And I had no self esteem. Yeah, so it looks like bills not being paid constant stress drinking a lot. unhealthy people in my life, trying to get through school the best I could. And I was a really lost lost person at that point in my life. Absolutely.

Mark Laurie: 11:04

Okay, so what was your how'd you find your footing?

Unknown: 11:09

I think the very first step to my personal growth was the person that I was living with cheated on me. And I just finished EMT School, which is the second level to become a paramedic, and the first really opportunity that I had to go into the workforce on an ambulance. So I moved six hours away to the middle of nowhere, Saskatchewan.

Mark Laurie: 11:30

That's not hard to find no, nowhere in Saskatchewan. And it's really

Unknown: 11:33

beautiful there. I might add that Saskatchewan is gorgeous.

Mark Laurie: 11:37

This this gap. I'm seeing projects, I think Saskatchewan got hidden gems there. There's hundreds of sand dunes I've yet to visit yet. There's, you know, unlike house, our mountains rise up and they kind of fall down and all sudden you in this. So it's got it's more than just prairie Wakefield, it's

Unknown: 11:51

the northern lights and the lakes and the forests. And oh, it's Saskatoon up is stunning.

Mark Laurie: 11:59

So my dad came from he was a young kid, he left home a lot of story. But okay, so you lived in middle of nowhere, I

Unknown: 12:04

moved to nowhere, nowhere. I really sort of isolated myself. I didn't date anybody. And I really sort of came to terms with what had happened, what you know how this had gone on. And I came to the conclusion that it wouldn't have mattered if I had been Cindy Crawford. This man was a cheater, a crappy person. And this really had nothing to do with me. And even though I would continue to struggle throughout my entire adult years with self esteem and image and relationships, right up till 2019 That's when I really started sort of taking my power back,

Mark Laurie: 12:41

if you will. Okay.

Unknown: 12:44

Yeah, really started making more decisions for my own good. I want to say it was kind of a come to Jesus moment for me in that aspect.

Mark Laurie: 12:55

Yeah, it was a moment that happened, that you suddenly have self awareness is that yeah, so the first statement,

Unknown: 13:01

yeah, it was actually was kind of a lightbulb moment when I realized that cheaters are going to cheat and it has nothing to do with you. But that also made me have a different understanding of my value. It was able, I was able to let go of a lot of that anger and hurt that I contained, and focus on on, you know, a new job and furthering my career because I wanted to become a paramedic. So that was another two years in school. And so I just spent a lot of time focusing on the academics and getting to where I wanted to be, which was being a paramedic. So my early 20s were spent really focused on school and career.

Mark Laurie: 13:40

Why do you choose that path? I mean, there's, there's like, there's nurses, and there's oilfield, and there's a lot of stuff you could do.

Unknown: 13:46

Yeah, a couple of different reasons. One being that my dad had a really bad accident when I was, I think 10 or 11. And we ended up calling the ambulance for him, which is something you don't do on the farm, because he was dying, and waking up that morning of the event. So he'd broken all of the long bones in his foot and had surgery on them had come back to the farm to heal. And then I woke up to my mom screaming upstairs and wailing and crying and wanting to go upstairs with being too terrified to do it. Because like what not wise, sounds really bad as you can imagine being 10 or 11 being terrified. And I'm already dysregulated at that point, and my dad's friend came flying in the yard with his truck and I could hear him and my mom panicked and then you could hear the sirens coming. And I did not like the sensation of being that terrified. And so I made a promise to myself at that point, that I would be the person that could create order out of chaos, that I would educate myself to the point where there would be no situation that could be so bad. I had that I couldn't figure it out. And to me that was a paramedic. Right? That's the person who figures out. Like, the worst.

Mark Laurie: 15:08

Did stuff. Yeah. Well, they

Unknown: 15:10

Yeah, right. They are the ultimate problem solvers and the ultimate fixer. So that was a huge part of it. And then the other part of it was that the only time that I was paid any attention to as a small child was if I was meeting someone else's needs in my home. So I wasn't even aware that I had needs until I was 38 years old. Wow. Yeah. 42, so not that long ago. And the only time that no one paid attention to me is when I was doing something for them. And so the minute that I needed anything, I was ignored or punished or what have you. So my push to become the ultimate giver of things and do her of things, right, because that's my value had been so attached to me doing things for other people, that being a paramedic is the ultimate, doing things for other people, you save their lives,

Mark Laurie: 16:04

you can't get much no more important than that.

Unknown: 16:07

So because my sense of value had been so externalized by my, the one parent in particular, I had no concept that I had any inherent value as a human being. So I honestly chose being a paramedic, because I thought that that made me valuable. And I had someone tell me this and it really rang true. She said, I didn't feel wanted. So I chose a job where I was needed. And I would say that's 100% accurate.

Mark Laurie: 16:39

Wow, that's a that's an interesting phrase.

Jessica van der Hoek: 16:44

A powerful one.

Mark Laurie: 16:46

There's a the red and green show has the life. Not good looking. You better be handy.

Unknown: 16:51

Yeah. Well, and this is kind of the the mental injury equivalent of that. Right is, that's, that's why I became a paramedic, because I thought that I would have value if I helped other people. So

Mark Laurie: 17:04

you've, you've hit a point where you can now look back on that. So here's what moved me. And here's what's guided me. Are you with that awareness? Are you wanting to change some of your path? Are you sit back and say this is comfortable for

Unknown: 17:19

me? No. I mean, I've been maintaining a really high pace of giving and giving and giving and doing and doing and doing. And I am at the point now where I realized that that's not sustainable. I'm also aware that my value is me. Okay, it's not in all the things that I do for everybody else. And so I'm gonna push for a little bit longer. Hopefully, I'm finally pushing myself up over that, that hill that we talked about, you know, the big hill of success. But this isn't sustainable. For me being there for everybody all the time isn't sustainable. And I would really love for my life to be about me. There hasn't been a single period of time in my 42 years where my life has been about me at all in any way.

Mark Laurie: 18:11

I, I see that with my clients that come in. And usually by the time they come to our studio, for a lot of them, it's huge. It's the most largest indulgence. And they concern that kind of vein that moves on VAT. I've discovered vanities, interesting thing. If you're concerned about being vain, you're not vain. Yeah, I'm like, people don't quite catch that. A vain person doesn't care. But people who worry about being vain. The second they asked that question is like, No, you're, you're kind of not there for it. But that's what that is. I've arrived, the point where there, the whole session is about them, what made they make choices and the kind of I

Unknown: 18:47

mean, I took two or three years to focus on my healing. significantly. I've been working on healing since probably 2010 2011. So it's been quite a while now. But I really took a concerted two years to really dig deep and do the deep, deep healing. But even then, I was still running the charity, I was still working as a paramedic,

Mark Laurie: 19:08

it's hard to extract from that, doesn't it? Like you've got all these obligations that you've been tied into their obligation? And you sit back and say, Well, I'm just gonna walk away from this, because everything falls apart. And I learned that when I was an associate I used to have, I still do have energy, but I just by the Bootstrap, right. And then I started realizing that what I was building wasn't necessarily good, because if I stepped away there just collapse. Which means what I was building wasn't, it was yeah, so that's a that's a stage three. So what did deep healing look like?

Unknown: 19:41

For me it was working with psychedelics actually going deep into the wounds and pulling, I call trauma weeds. Okay, that's a fair analogy that I have because I can use a lot of different examples to sort of give people the understanding but trauma is like a Weed. So you have the surface plant that may be obvious or maybe it isn't obvious and influenza in with everything else and you're not aware of it right. But all weeds have really deep root systems, right? They're so hard to get rid of. And there's so little in spider. I mean, you take a look at a thistle. Good luck getting that thing out of the ground, right? Yeah. And so when you work with psychedelics, you actually pull all the roots of that weed out versus just pulling the weed off the top, I think the way that I describe the current mental health system, and I don't want to say traditional, because that's not the truth. Typical mental health, let's put it that way. They've been so focused on the brain aspect of mental health injuries, that they haven't become aware that mental health injuries are solely injuries first, and then their brain injuries. And so all of the therapy is really focused on the brain, which is a lot of what I was doing. And that is the equivalent of taking a lawn full of weeds, and mowing it with a lawn mower. And going okay, that's great. All the weeds have been cut down to size, they went in with a lawn, everything looks great. That's all green. But what's the first thing that goes back when it rains? They adapt quickly. Yes, they do. The weeds grow back. And they typically will grow back sturdier and hardier because their root system has been threatened. So what do they do, they dig in even deeper. And that's what trauma does. And so when we just focus on the brain aspect of trauma, which is what I was doing, we don't actually pull the roots out, and it sits there. And it festers. And so for me, really focusing on healing was working with psychedelics, because like I said, that's how we pull the roots out of that trauma, and we actually heal, but it's dark. And it's painful. And it requires a lot of awareness and a lot of work. Which is why not, you know, not everyone does it, not a lot of people do it to be completely

Mark Laurie: 22:05

testing, most people complacency kicks in and it's like, Well, okay, I can live this, you know, this, if this sort of find get used to the of the rub, you know, and so on to it and but to dig in and do at anything, like I've seen in my photography profession and other professions is that the whole society, like we hear quite often is like, buy this, press this button, and it'd be just like a professional, I'm thinking or you could like, do the work, become a professional? And then you have to find the money. Why don't we just want the button, we just want that real quick, real quick kind of thing for do you have the support systems like when you say you take psychedelics, there's gonna be somebody around, they just woke up. There's a cute Marshmallow, you

Unknown: 22:47

know, I I've been very lucky that I have a family member who is a shaman. And so when I first started working with psychedelics, it was with him and at his retreat center, which was done extremely well and very safely and properly. So my first experience with psychedelics was a really great one. And since then I've been able to connect with people. We have a huge psychedelic community here in Calgary. And some of my best friends are shaman, and amazing guides with within a psychedelic community. So I've been super fortunate that I do have people to support me while I continue to heal.

Mark Laurie: 23:28

What's the definition of a shaman? Like your modern day time?

Unknown: 23:31

Yeah, I think that's a hard question to answer for me, because I don't actually know. I think that term gets thrown around so much that people take a week long course or they do you know what I mean? It's so to me, a shaman is somebody who has been identified by bloodline, or by some other traditional healer, and that has spent their years doing their training and their rites of passage, and has done their work like this is somebody who was born into it or who is identified as having it as being gifted and has done years of work. Right. It's a term that I would never use lightly to someone, they've earned that title. It's a hard road. Right? And that title was given to them by someone else. I think that's a key piece. You don't just self identify as another shaman needs to tell you that your shaman

Mark Laurie: 24:31

meet you'll see on the peak, as opposed to oh, look at this cracker jacks. It comes with a shaman thing inside

Unknown: 24:37

certificate because I did a weekend course on shamanism by white people as I roll my eyes. You know,

Mark Laurie: 24:45

do you have indigenous native background just the way you're currently I

Unknown: 24:50

don't. I did grow up on reserve though. I am fully Dutch but I was blessed with the opportunity to live on a Blackfoot reserve with money And incredibly grateful that my family showed me what they were allowed to write. There's only certain things you're allowed to know for certain people, and protocol and all that sort of stuff. But I was, I consider myself extremely fortunate that I got to grow up in that environment. Because Blackfoot culture is incredible and deep and multi layered, and intelligent and beautiful. And like I just I have a huge amount of respect for for Blackfoot people and for their culture.

Mark Laurie: 25:33

So that would probably make an introduction to a shaman or an understanding of shaman a little bit easier than somebody who just crossed the street gonna say I'm looking for a shaman, you'd have a deeper resonance of what they're gonna provide for you.

Jessica van der Hoek: 25:44

Yeah. Yes, well, yeah.

Mark Laurie: 25:49

So when you with the psychedelics, that's something that I don't do anything at all, I've had that place, my background, and any kind of drugs terrify me because my doctor explained one time that the trigger stuff and so you can put the fear of God into me the time, but is there when you take different psychedelics, you're going for a particular like this one, will bridge this gap, or this one takes me here? Is there a process of selection? Depending on what the need is?

Unknown: 26:13

Yes, absolutely, there is a process of selection depending on how ready you are to surrender. Because some require a deeper level of surrendering than others. And some, this is kind of what I say to people when I, when I'm consulting with them about you know what they want to work with. If you look at trauma, like layers of an onion, a lot of us have multiple layers of trauma. And each psychedelic will access those layers of trauma slightly differently. Some might peel away two layers, or five layers, or one layer, and some might cut that onion in half and make you look at a whole half of it or or the whole thing. It just depends. So how ready are you to look at all of it at any given time, you know, how much are you able to comprehend or to tolerate? Right? And that really makes a difference in what medicine you would work with. But to that end, intention is really important. Like if I go into working with medicine, I have an intention behind what I'm doing. I don't just do it willy nilly. I'm not just doing it to experience it. My I'm doing it for a specific purpose, I have an intention. And that intention can really direct your experience.

Mark Laurie: 27:35

So when you go into it, what's it look like? Like? Is it? Is it a mental visual thing? Is it an emotional thing? Like what's the

Unknown: 27:43

all of the above, okay, and if people experience it slightly differently, I will experience really beautiful visuals, bright, colorful visuals. But in my mind's eye, I don't really see things the way other people might see it like a movie, I will feel the image of things. I don't know if that makes any sense to you. Like I understand that. Yeah, so I can't see it. But I can see it in my imagination. And I can feel what it feels like. And so that's for me the journey. Other people can have really vivid images and really intense lifelike experiences within it. Or when they open their eyes, I can see a lot of really neat things too. And my eyes are open because people think you're hallucinating and I use the quotation.

Mark Laurie: 28:31

Big Air quotes here, people.

Unknown: 28:33

The reality is that dormant parts of your brain are actually being activated and are opaque. So your ability to perceive different types of light and different dimensions is actually heightened.

Mark Laurie: 28:46

Okay, but how does that how do you then take whatever you're experiencing? And say, this layer of an onion, this is the experience I'm trying to offload. Understand, like, what is that part of it? So you've gotten to where you're now experiencing psychedelic, and now you want to the intent of the journey. So how does that

Unknown: 29:03

So the the really fascinating part about all of us, isn't it we have what's called an internal healer. And so that internal healer is the best, truest and traumatized version of us. Because we all actually know what we need to heal, okay. But when we experienced trauma, we get disconnected from ourselves. And so we learn to stop trusting ourselves because what we're being told about ourselves is incongruent with how we feel so we stopped trusting ourselves. We all know exactly what we need. And when we work with psychedelics, we're able to access our own internal healer. So our internal healer will show us what it is that we need to heal in any given session. And so sometimes it can look like having a really profound experience with someone having a conversation with their soul. In your mind, it can be traveling to different planets, it can be meeting non human entities which is widely reported. And it can also look disconnected and disjointed and like what the heck just happened. But the neat thing about psychedelics is they don't just work on your conscious mind where you have those big aha moments about something. And I'll kind of go back to that. But it also works on your subconscious and unconscious. So digs up all of this little debris. And detritus, that doesn't make any sense to us, because we don't remember it bothering us at any point in time. But it did, and our body stored it. And so it'll kick up all this random stuff. And he'll be there for like, three, four hours, like what on earth is happening in my mind, but it's just because the medicine is kicking up all of these, you know, little bits of random things that we experienced that bothered us, but we didn't know they stuck with us. And so it's just healing it. And the great part about that is we don't need to understand, we don't have to have like an aha moment with it or have like a conscious experience, whether we don't need to understand any of it, we just have to trust that the medicines healing us. And that's it, we don't need to understand, we don't need to analyze, we don't need to use our brains. But having said that, if we're supposed to have a conscious experience, then psychedelics will bring something up to our awareness. So you've had a specific traumatic event, it will allow you to process that event without having the emotional charge to it. So it allows you a bit of a distance so that you can actually see that event from different perspectives. And in doing so you can gain a different perspective, right? And really make peace with it. And then what that does is allows the brain to store it as an experience instead of a trauma. And so the healing that can happen from that is just incredible.

Mark Laurie: 31:47

So do you have someone that's there helps you interpret what you're experiencing?

Unknown: 31:51

Yes. So that's where a guide is super helpful, right? A trained guide, or trained sitter will allow you to be able to make sense of what you've experienced, other places will offer you, psychologists that specializes in integration, I'm very lucky that I get to work with several of them, and they're amazing. And so I do recommend having somebody that understands and when I say understands, I mean has done their own work with psychedelics has healed themselves, has had their own experiences, because those are the ones that are going to be able to help you make sense of your experiences. And then I always do follow up sessions with my psychologists. So it is that's integration. It's actually a really key piece of working with psychedelics, making sense and making meaning of your experience.

Mark Laurie: 32:42

Let's go back to a bit Larry, we're talking about success. Okay, so with all this background on the truths are laid out, what becomes success for you, and you sit back and you're gonna have this greater vision of yourself to success? What does success

Unknown: 32:57

to me, success looks like a bunch of different things. The biggest thing is acceptance of where I am, if I know that I can accept where I am, I am successful, regardless of what's happening. Because acceptance, prevents suffering, right? Resistance creates suffering. And so to me being successful looks like being very accepting of where I am. It also looks like being my own boss, having my own business. Being financially free, would be incredible. But even more so than being financially successful. Having time that is just about me. When I know that I can take a month and just that month is all about me.

Mark Laurie: 33:42

That's the cornerstone of intrapreneurship. If you come across any good coach and I can there's a fellow we work with called Wayne Westland. He's brilliant mind. And this approach is not like here's a program for it's like, well, let's see what you need him take it through there. He's got several successful businesses. His mantra is if this term, if you're successful business purposes, can you walk away for a month? And if you can't, then you don't really have a business, you've got a a, you've designed a work work program. So that becomes the cornerstone of if you can't disappear and make it still working, then you're not you don't really have a business. You've got a Self Help Program.

Unknown: 34:15

Yeah, exactly. I, my big goal is to be able to look at all the things that I've created, but to be able to pick and choose when I feel like being involved, right, like I've handed over the reins, I have sold my business or I have, you know, some shares in it or whatever, however, that would work. But that if I choose to go there that day, that's my choice, right? I don't have to be there because no one else can do what I do, or do you know what I mean? I would love nothing more than just to be able to look at everything and go cool. If I want to go play with the horses, I'm gonna go play with the horses, and no one's gonna bother me. I'm not gonna get inundated with questions and you know, or I can Yeah, to me that's

Mark Laurie: 35:01

we had, I was working at our company, one of the coaches, we had business coaches, he put me in a visionary position. So you got, you know, the CEO and all this but functional stuff. And above that, because it's my company still is the visionary. And so you're the one that comes up with ideas, and I want to be Yep, can

Unknown: 35:19

I get? Can I become a multimillionaire? Being a visionary? Yes, that is the big test of my life. Because that's all I want to be. I don't want to be a boss. I don't want to be a business owner. I want to be a visionary. But I want to be really well. I have my reasons for that. But you know, that I'm not ashamed to say it.

Mark Laurie: 35:39

The worst thing is when you have wealth, you can make change the world.

Unknown: 35:43

That's exactly. I can build my healing center, I can support other, you know, not support other people as in, like, prevent them from being their own success, but like, actually support them in a meaningful way. Get them launched, get them launched, right. Yeah, exactly.

Mark Laurie: 36:03

I had a conversation with as a very frustrated, wealthy person who had I think they were learning like something 40 or 50% of their income on an annual basis was went to charity, very specific places that they felt would lose stuff. And you'd always get frustrated. She said, you know, what? If you don't have wealthy people, then things can't get done. Yeah. That's, that's exactly the growth of it. And so

Unknown: 36:27

we're relying on these people holding all of this money to to help us because they anyways, yeah,

Mark Laurie: 36:34

there's two sides of that coin. Because there's, there's a group of people it means I dig deep. I do get impressed when I x. I know, some people are overwhelmed, wealthy, one fellow he was out he was he was buying apartment blocks. And I didn't quite grasp what he meant. What he meant was, he was buying city blocks of apartments. He bought like five or six of them. So not just one. No, he was. So this is the whole, like, city block. And it's like, in Europe, those blocks are big. And my once I kind of grabbed my brains going, Okay, so that's wealthy, wealthy. Yeah. And then he would he was doing some things with them as well, that were very giving back. So it was a place for people who are lost to kind of go he had, he had some different kinds of things. It was a very interesting process.

Jessica van der Hoek: 37:22

I would love to have that opportunity.

Mark Laurie: 37:25

Because back to intentions. If you there's some I recently was, you know, a dream is just a wish until you make a plan. Yeah. And then once the intention comes in and just start looking for stuff. It starts to build up. It's like the universe goes, Oh, well, yeah. I've been admiring your your tattoos. on them. They're there. I'll explain to the audience. You have one side looks like Medusa. Yes. Okay, and that side there. And on the other side, we've got poem of some sort.

Jessica van der Hoek: 37:54

Yeah, yep. It's the FootPrint poem.

Mark Laurie: 37:57

Right. Okay, I got it. Yeah.

Unknown: 38:00

This is my Ode to psychedelics here. So all the different plant medicines that I've worked, so

Mark Laurie: 38:05

what inspired you to start getting tattoos,

Unknown: 38:10

I think it was a way for me to release a lot of pain. Like the first two big ones that I did were each shoulder, right? And each arm and both of these are were homage is to a lot of pain and suffering that I dealt with in my life. And it was a physical release of all of that pain. So for me, it was a matter of self expression. But it was also a way of honoring all of the trauma that I've been through all the crap that I've been through, right, suffering that I've done, it was a way of honoring it in a in an artistic way.

Mark Laurie: 38:47

So that became your release and reminder as well, where you've been from absence to

Jessica van der Hoek: 38:51

Absolutely, constantly.

Mark Laurie: 38:53

Yeah. So why do I'm reminded of your trauma, what's the value of that,

Unknown: 38:57

because I learned a lot from it. I have been able to grow as a human being and really change as a result of it because I've been given the opportunity to learn from my trauma instead of being eaten alive by it. Don't get me wrong, I was eaten alive by it for a long time. But it's more about the lessons than the reminder of the pain. But on a small, small level, it is a reminder of the pain and just the acknowledgement that if I made it through that, I can make it through anything else. So it is a it's a reminder of my my own strength and it's a reminder of the lessons that I've learned.

Mark Laurie: 39:35

You must at this point, feel your personal strength. I mean, you you climb through valleys and mountains and dirt and grime and you wind up on top and you're taking a shower like you that's a that's a huge overcome. And that must fill you with some sense of odd yourself or a sense of your own personal power.

Unknown: 39:53

Yes, it does. I am starting to really get a sense of what I can accomplish. And, but what I'm also experiencing is a lot of feedback from other people that are very intimidated by that power. And so on a daily basis, I'm being reminded that I am too much. And that it is I am too. And they don't want to say you're too powerful. So it comes across as your to the this, you're too bad. Or

Mark Laurie: 40:21

you're too I came across, I'll just share this cuz I get the same way. Sometimes, like, I'll get visions and dreams and plans and I just gotta barge into it. And as one group, and we're talking to the trainer, or the coach, or guru, or whatever title would be his point was that if you're getting that reaction from the people that's around you, you're with the wrong tribe.

Unknown: 40:42

Yeah, unfortunately, these are my colleagues. Yeah. And so the ones I liked,

Mark Laurie: 40:47

they kind of kick into, but they will his point was or her point where I couldn't accept anyways, the point is that you you'll have the people you can't avoid. Yeah, I guess. And then you have the people of your tribe. And the other ones remind you that now you're, you're barely touching your greatness. Okay. And then when you come back to the other ones, they become less and less influential. Yeah. And they become, because what they're really I believe doing is they're expressing their own adequacy

Unknown: 41:14

and our percent 100%. But it shows up as complaints.

Mark Laurie: 41:19

It has a vehicle, I remember, there's a way back when I took my very first I was in real estate at the time, and it's the first half of this course, was you're going to be great, you're gonna amazing, and we're like soaking this up, right? And then on Wednesday, midday point he goes, Okay, so probably stuffs not going to happen. I'll tell you why it's no, go back to the, you know, the unicorns and rainbows were like that. And he says, this is like, the world is a fleet trainer. And that's where you got to fleas. And the guy says, yeah, these two fleas can jump forever. But if you put them that way, they learned the quantum jump as high as your box. And that's when he revealed that people in your life will either support you have a choice. If you're starting to excel in what you do. The people can either step up their game, and sort of match you and grow with you. Or they'll do it's easier for most people, which is to bring you down to their level that way. Yeah. And that way, you know, if they're not here at this tilta for neath you, then they can still be you know better than you. But they don't have to grow anywhere. Exactly. And that becomes as soon as you recognize that though the power of that disappears.

Unknown: 42:20

It's always projection. It's the hassle of dealing with it on a daily basis. I'm like, Oh, I have to make myself small. So you don't feel so bad about yourself? I'm sorry, I'm not willing to do that. Yeah, I'm really lucky that my tribe and my friends are really supportive. And they are really awesome cheerleaders. But they're also, they also love me enough to hold a mirror up when my behavior isn't appropriate. Oh, my power is too much. And I mean, there are times where I use my power. And I channel in anger. Right. And so they're really good about loving me enough to show me the parts of myself that aren't Awesome, so that I can fix them and heal them and work on them. So I do have a good tribe.

Mark Laurie: 43:05

Yeah. And that takes a bold sense of trust and confidence. When someone stands up to you and goes, you know, yeah, your mirror for a few seconds. Tell you gotta do something with your makeup.

Unknown: 43:16

Right? Yeah, I'm not shaming you either. Just do it in a way that is like, Nope, we're not doing this anymore. But I love you. But we're not doing this anymore. It's like, okay, thank you, thank you for bringing that to my awareness. I had no idea. So

Mark Laurie: 43:32

I did find a phrase, though, that I red flags with every time I hear when a person says, I'm going to be honest, I have to be honest. And I find whatever person has to use those words, it really means, okay, this is my excuse to be mean. And it's very different than someone's going to be constructive, because a person is constructive has a hold of approach. But though, I find that as much a trigger words. And that's just I want to be mean. And this is this is my way of you. Give me the authority to be mean to you under the guise of helping you and really we both of us, how's that going on?

Jessica van der Hoek: 44:05

Yep, I totally understand.

Mark Laurie: 44:10

Would you change anything from your past?

Unknown: 44:14

I waffle with that one, because that's such a hard one. There's so many things I wish I didn't have to experience. You know, obviously, it wasn't just childhood, in my adult years, where there's a lot of things that happened in them. You know, being a paramedic for 22 years, that's enough to mess anyone up. And so it's just been layers upon layers upon layers. And in 38 years, I didn't have any room to breathe. I couldn't do that over again.

Mark Laurie: 44:43

There's a much difference between saying I went and I get scared what changed my past like, I'm deeply in love with my wife, and she's like the cradle of my earth kind of thing before I go back and think well, if I were to change something, right, would that mean to be out of sync with her would that mean I would. So therefore once your past has come by all those Think of like Nelson Mandela that that healed a nation spent 30 years in jail. And he was asked that question, you know, and he goes, Well, no. If I had gotten out early, then this wouldn't have happened, probably wouldn't have happened.

Unknown: 45:15

And I gotta be honest with you, I don't think that that's happened for me, I don't think I've had my moment where I went, like, I understand why everything has happened, I completely, I've made peace with that part, I understand how every little thing that I've experienced has shaped me and directed me into exactly where I need to be. But I'm sort of standing on the precipice of something. And I don't know what that something is yet. And that something might be worth all of the things that I've been through that I don't know yet. Because I haven't gotten to that place for I can say, in my life. This is what it was all for. Man, it was all worth it. Yeah, I haven't reached that place yet.

Mark Laurie: 45:55

I think sometimes you've got to be ready to recognize what it is because it can be a quiet moment. I've got where somebody was talking recently for that, of course, I'm taking and they're asking us to go back and find the high points or emotional moments in our lives. And so and I'm digging in, I noticed there's that there's a gap in there. And it's it was to do with Jan, and it was there's no big dramatic moment with Jan, like we're just we're very comfortable. You know, things kind of flow and happen. And so I don't have that we have neat things that kind of happened. But there's nothing big, fast, emotional and realize that that quietness, comfortable acceptance is just a huge form of what I treasure most of my life.

Jessica van der Hoek: 46:38

Absolutely, I completely understand that.

Mark Laurie: 46:43

Well, this has been really fascinating. Hence the name of the podcast, you enjoyed it,

Unknown: 46:48

I have. It's been great talking to you, I love for sharing. And, you know, even articulating my own experiences helps me gain new perspective, right, and my little aha moment there with you.

Mark Laurie: 47:04

I get a lot of that with my, with my guests. It's kind of cool. I get feedback from a lot of my listeners that says, I was listening to self. So then all sudden, something just clicked that I realized that part of my life parallel what they've gone through. And now suddenly, that made sense. And that's the purpose for this show. And I guess with it. Before we leave, though, one of the things when I first met we talked about is you do have a big vision huge. So if you want to do so let's just share that for a bit for the people, then you can write up a bit more in the notes there. But tell us what your big vision is.

Unknown: 47:31

So my big vision is a world class Healing Center for Mental Health, illness and injury, trauma, etc. And it's 160 acres on a beautiful plot of land. And its access to Equine Assisted Therapy, it's access to psychologists and psychiatrists, holistic practices like breathwork, meditation, yoga, psychedelic medicine and traditional medicines on a beautiful piece of land. And the idea is that it's a one stop. I don't want to say one stop shop, because it sounds more like a convenience store. I think I've expressed that to you. But one stop healing place. Yeah, a one stop healing place. Because one of the biggest things that happens to people is they don't know what's available to them. Right. So they struggle, because they're like, I don't know, I don't know what I can try. The second thing is that they have to drive to all of these different appointments to have all of their needs met. And the third thing is that a lot of their health care team doesn't talk to each other. The doctors that are prescribing the meds to these people aren't talking to their psychologists and their psychologists aren't talking to their doctors. And it's just the way the system is. And so my vision is to have a place where someone could go and have all of their needs met, and be in a community because it's been proven time and time and time and time and time again, and for hundreds and 1000s of years, we heal faster and better when we do it as a community. So I want to provide a community with all of the supports that someone would need to be able to heal so they don't have to suffer the way that I suffered. And if that means you come in weekly for all of your appointments or if that means that you're from, you know, the states or another country and you fly in and you stay on the property and one of our cabins for a week long or two week long retreat, but that it encompasses the entire human right the soul, the heart, the energetic aspect of you, the emotional aspect of you the physical aspect of you because your body is very much involved in your trauma and your brain. Right that it's it's a you know, a beautiful place to heal. And so that's my big vision is to take all of my loves psychedelic assisted therapy, and pair them all together in

Mark Laurie: 49:55

peace. Yep, that's sweet. And there'll be more about that in the links when you check Cut the barrel section of the podcast. Thank you for coming today. It's been a delight having you in and we've traveled some interesting roads.

Jessica van der Hoek: 50:07

Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

Mark Laurie: 50:10

This is Mark Laurie from fascinating woman but also from inner spirit photography. So if you're looking to have a breakthrough moment, I do that with my photography. Talk to you soon. Bye now.

Exit speaker: 50:21

This has been fascinating women with Mark Laurie. Join us on our website and subscribe at fascinating women does he a fascinating women has been sponsored by inner spirit photography of Calgary, Alberta and is produced in Calgary by Lee of us and my office media