Chelsea Jones PhD - Inclusion advocate - Postdoctoral Fellowship - photographer - Veteran Occupational Therapist

introduction: 0:04

You're listening to fascinating with with Mark Laurie. And now, Mark Laurie.

Mark Laurie: 0:10

Well, hello, everyone. I'm Mark Laurie from inner spirit photography. And today, of course, I'm hosting fascinating women. My guest today is Chelsea Jones always call her see. And she is a delightful girl who's got so much energy and the stuff she's involved in is incredible. She has got just got her doctorate. And she'll talk about that, as well as some awards with her photography regime. So she is got those two sides of the brain working on the medical side and the technical side and this highly creative side, which is really kind of cool. Chelsea, welcome.

Chelsea Jones: 0:44

Thank you. It's an honor to be here.

Mark Laurie: 0:47

It's always nice to hear I appreciate that. So we've got some of your warrants behind now, you've just gotten a fellowship word, your photography.

Chelsea Jones: 0:57

Sure, so I'm a member of the professional photographers of Canada, just like yourself. And I recently completed the qualifications for the fellowship of the PPOC, which is a the highest designation in the PPOC. Mark is one of the I think, 10 people in the history of the PPOC to have that award. And I believe there's seven or eight of us still around, and I'm honored to be the first woman to receive that award.

Mark Laurie: 1:28

Yeah, we're thrilled to have you in our ranks. I think I was number six in there. So it's been it's been a big gap between what I did mine and people coming up onto it. So I'm excited that you've got that. But your topic was interesting, as most photographers, their their topic is, is, is photography, let's you know, let's tie back up but you picked a more professions, a controversial in some place it is, but a much more inclusive kind of thing. So what was the title of your,

Chelsea Jones: 1:55

my topic, my thesis looked at diversity and inclusion in the photography industry, and more specifically, within the PPOC in Alberta. I was inspired after the events of last summer when George Floyd was murdered in the United States. And there was a lot more discussion and discourse around issues and intersectionality, race, and how we are navigating through our society with kind of a blinders on really. And photography is no exception to that, especially in Canada and the United States. And I wanted to do a little bit of advocacy, bring some awareness to it and mostly grow myself and learn more so that I can just be a better human as I navigate my my life.

Mark Laurie: 2:40

How are you finding that? That mental change, where you're not so much the advocacy part? But as you're watching, I guess it's your language and how you move through life? How do you find you're equipped for that?

Chelsea Jones: 2:52

I think I'm lucky, I come from a home with parents that were pretty inclusive and talk to me about issues around race and gender and very accepting. I think that helps my education. I'm an occupational therapist by trade. A big part of that is advocating for populations with disabilities. And yeah, I think I'm just very fortunate that that path has has led me here. I think that it's interesting. I was telling someone, another photographer in the PPOC earlier this week that I'm almost embarrassed by some of the things I wrote in my thesis last year, because since then, I've still been trying to learn and develop and I learned better ways to phrase things and better language and more acceptable language. And it's just a constant path of growth and learning and development. And I mean, that's, that's the best I can can can do, I guess, is try to try to be a better person every day.

Mark Laurie: 3:51

I think that's always always part is, is anytime you start on something new. By changing the habit change in approach, you're going to stumble like, no one's an expert the first day for it. But I think it's you're constantly trying the community that you're working with and you're trying to become inclusive with respect that don't think that they see your efforts.

Chelsea Jones: 4:13

For the most part, you know, it's interesting working with the diversity and inclusion initiatives within the pboc in the photography industry. A lot of people are very receptive to it the majority are there are some people who are opposed. There are some people who are hoping that there's positive changes coming in the future but they're very scared to voice that or their opinion and don't want to be seen as political which I think diversity and inclusion isn't necessarily in my mind political at all, but it can be perceived by some that way.

Mark Laurie: 4:48

Yeah. Now the cancel culture scares a lot of people. Yeah, yeah. They just pick on pick it randomly and you're sort of into it. Your your, your doctorete because he went up from the bachelor kinesiology skip steps, what's your timeframe benefit your education in that side of the world.

Chelsea Jones: 5:08

So I started my bachelor's in kinesiology in 2004 at the University of Saskatchewan in Saskatoon where I where I hail from. And then I decided I wanted to be an occupational therapist. And to do that I had to move to Edmonton. So I moved in 2008. And I did my Master's in occupational therapy from 2008 to 2010. And then I went to work after that, and I worked for about actually nine years with the Canadian Armed Forces as the occupational therapist, with that organization, Department of National Defense in Western Canada. And then I went back to school in 2019. And it was a bizarre, rapid COVID leading process. But in 2000, when I graduated with my PhD in Rehabilitation Science,

Mark Laurie: 5:58

so what's your involvement with the armed forces act? They hold a special part of my in my heart, I they did you just picked up because that was a direction? Or do you sort of evolve into that that was was something that was important to you?

Chelsea Jones: 6:10

When I was in school for Occupational Therapy, it became very apparent that the Canadian Armed Forces didn't have occupational therapy. And that was a profession that could really benefit on the physical health and mental health side for our armed forces members. So I was passionate about it early, I kind of looked at it and was like, you know, maybe that's once I'm in the profession for 20 years kind of milestone, but it ended up happening when I was about two and a half years into the profession, an opportunity arose. And it's profoundly changed my life and my career. And I owe a lot to that organization, for sure.

Mark Laurie: 6:44

One thing that always interests me is pops up in the show an awful lot, what kind of things happened your childhood that sets you up for the type of path you're on right now? Like, you're really involved in supporting people. And that also happens. I mean, that's really what the photography that you do does as well. So what kind of happened when you're a kid that started to shape that?

Chelsea Jones: 7:02

I think a big part of it is my my mom is a retired mental health nurse, she retired after I think 37 years of nursing. And she was passionate about it from day one today, I don't know the very end, she loved it. And you know, after she retired, she was still showing up there. And she's still volunteers and helps a little bit. And last winter, she was doing things during COVID, like setting up hope trees in the park with decorations and mental health resources and positive affirmations. And it's just, she's such an absolute inspiration for me. And I think that her getting me involved with volunteering with populations with mental health disorders, and groups that there is a lot of stigma in society around that really helped shape my career, as well as the way my outlook and the way I look at life and definitely wanting to help people and make things better for them. Yeah, so I came from a very open mental health family friendly kind of environment growing up, and I think that stuck with me.

Mark Laurie: 8:06

How would you describe your point of view on life?

Chelsea Jones: 8:11

Oh, that's a hard question. Um, I don't know, I'm just at this point in going yet. It's really day to day if it's not in my calendar, it doesn't exist, basically. At this point, I guess my view on life is that balance is really important. And balance is something that I haven't achieved yet. And something I hope I do in the future. Sometimes I wonder if it's a fallacy. But yeah, I think that more and more you pick your family and your family and friends, your your group is is incredibly important. Happiness is something to aspire to. But everything that happens in your life, your successes, and your failures, shape, your path, and it's weird, life's weird. You never know when you're good, where you're gonna end up I yeah.

Mark Laurie: 8:58

So about say two things, when you're really young, that shaped you direction that come along, you get this thing and you kind of bounce this way of saying you bounce that way.

Chelsea Jones: 9:09

I think that, like I guess how young I don't really think too much about. Okay, so so I guess I was really just sports is as a teenager, and I thought I was going to go to university and I was going to become a gym teacher. So that was my goal. And I was set on that. And then I went to university and I started in kinesiology. And it became really apparent to me that if I went the route of being a phys ed teacher or a physiotherapist, I wouldn't get to work in that mental health population in that that realm of health and wellness. So that actually made me decide to go to occupational therapy instead of physio therapy, and I never looked back, I would say that volunteering with those populations at my mom's work, growing up was was really inspirational and definitely made me pick a path when there was a fork in the road

Mark Laurie: 9:59

right? So what would be your biggest challenge? Something you tackled, and it was just a failure. Like you just walked away from it. Like, oh my god, that did not work out.

Chelsea Jones: 10:09

Um, speed skating, tried speed skating didn't go well.

Mark Laurie: 10:14

Speed Skating. I also speed skated when I was a kid, I also speed skating.

Unknown: 10:17

Okay. Well, I was always told that like, it might be my sport just with with my body mechanics and makeup. And I tried it. And it just it hurt my neck. And I was bad at it. And I did one season and learn how to do it and was just like, Nope, never again. But you know, usually and maybe to a fault if I start something, I'm going to finish it if it kills me. And I say to a fault, because sometimes it's a really good idea to let things go. And I just I have trouble doing that sometimes.

Mark Laurie: 10:45

Well, is that something that your parents instilled in you? That when you got that, is that something inherent in you?

Chelsea Jones: 10:51

I think that was was an inherent I don't remember ever having a lot of pressure from my parents. Like you have to stick with it or see it through. I think about our activities, my brother and I growing up and it was often do you still like this? Do you still want to do it? There was never any any pressure. So So yeah, I don't know where I get that from. But it's it's like, I don't know, something inherent, I guess. And I'm just competitive with myself. And yeah, I just I want to finish with what what I started, whether it's a commitment to someone else, or something I said I was gonna do. But yeah, like I said, sometimes the best thing to do is to let go, but I struggle with that.

Mark Laurie: 11:30

I, when I was my parents were big on accountability. And so I could do anything I wanted. Then we'd negotiate How long was gonna do it for so I would take your music lessons. Okay, great. You're gonna do the guitar for six months. And, and that's so choose carefully. Like That was the whole thing is, is wherever it is, you're gonna finish that cycle of it. So choose it carefully, because you're apt to stick to it. It's been kind of ingrained into me the ability to say no, because I could I could I'll see down the road that you know, my six month window and go, that's not gonna fly. Yeah, yeah. I don't want that my six months, but so I learned to pick things carefully. Yeah,

Unknown: 12:05

yeah. Even then, actually, when I was a kid, I guess I did stick with it. And then suddenly, we were doing softball and tap dancing and swimming and basketball. And my parents were just like, we've created a monster. I was busy.

Mark Laurie: 12:18

You said you're competitive, but you compete against yourself. So how do you see competition? Is that something that you need, other people spur you on? Like I've encountered some people in business and in in organizations, and they, they're really driven by the urge not to be second place. Other people could care less. And I kind of fall in that category. They're really not concerned about what the rest of the world is doing. It's their own markers. How do you fall on that?

Chelsea Jones: 12:42

I really don't care if I'm first or last. I've kind of Yeah, even in sports. I mean, I'm there to play. I'm there to you know, beat my personal bests and to grow and get better. But I'd say with photography, with the fellowship with the accreditation, like it's all a competition within myself, it has nothing to do with with other people. Yeah, so so I guess, you know, accreditation every time you apply trying to become proficient in a new genre. And if you, you know, get a few images in, but you don't get it, then you try again, the next time. And yeah, it's always trying to compete with myself on my own worst critic, for sure. So So yeah, that's what I'm always trying to attain. But yeah, I mean, for me, the photography and involvement with the pboc. And that kind of thing. It's very personal. It's not, not for, for, you know, I'm not thinking of doing it for advertising or anything like that. I mean, I do use it for some for sure. But I'm really thinking about it in how can I be better and I need a goal to reach for next

Mark Laurie: 13:46

So you are kind of goal orientated. Like, that's what drives you to have a goal have a clear vision of what, what your target is or what you're wearing after?

Chelsea Jones: 13:52

Absolutely, yeah, no, I'd say I'm definitely goal oriented. And I'm always setting goals, writing them down. lots, lots notes, things like that. So I like to plan things and try and have a path The path doesn't always happen. But sometimes it's the process that is the best part. So

Mark Laurie: 14:09

I've been learning the word intent actually, was become very powerful, where it's like, start, this is my intention, I'm going to go there. But if something, you know, I'm open to opportunities, I guess. And I'm just I was laughing to myself because I was on the same kind of thing. I I'm aware it's kind of going on around me. So I don't want to fall behind. But I was looking up your, your, your bio within the ppoc and I very rarely see the number of accreditations that you've acquired.

Chelsea Jones: 14:38

Trying to catch you mark,

Mark Laurie: 14:39

I can tell him that I've got 37 She's like a 20 I'm gonna have to do some things. Most guys come up in there. They're bragging themselves and they're gonna, you know, beat my account, which is good because the more people that get, you know, raise your professional I am happy with that. Then the positive so how many do you have? I got 37 and then they go Oh, we got three. So do well, but I'm looking at you going Oh, it's not gonna be very Well, because she's scary the person who's focused because they will find their way.

Unknown: 15:05

Well, you know, I'm stalled right now, because I'm actually the accreditation chair. So I'm not allowed to apply for any.

Mark Laurie: 15:11

There you go.

Chelsea Jones: 15:11

So your your title is safe

Mark Laurie: 15:13

safe for awhile. Yeah, there's been it's been great. So do you just shifting back again to your to your focus? How do you pick as you know, you're going to follow through, you know, that you're going to go to aggressively is probably the wrong word but but single mindedly on your goals, totally choosing carefully your goals, you weigh them before you embark upon it.

Chelsea Jones: 15:34

Yeah, I weighed them. I also I discussed them with my husband, especially for big goals, like going back to school. Like I always say it's a it's a team effort, right? It's not something that I can do without everyone on board and without, you know, supportive of my spouse or my family, right? It's, it's, and then it switches, right, someone else to go back to school or someone else will have a goal that they want to reach and everything changes for the team, right? So so it definitely I've talked about it with other people. And sometimes they can reason with me or talk me out of it. But my crew is usually pretty good about talking me into it. So sometimes I secretly want them to talk me out of it, but then they make me think it's a good idea. But yeah, I definitely, I do a lot of goal setting and behavioral activation with my patients every day. So I think that's something that that I use in my own life setting long term goals, short term goals, steps, reevaluating every few weeks or months or years, whatever it might be. So I'm pretty methodical in my my goal setting. And I'm also I mean, I'm a researcher. So I do know that from the science side of things, there is really good evidence to show that that's the best way to reach your goals. And like you said, with intent, and if we write it down, if we share it with other people, we're more likely to be accountable to that intent.

Mark Laurie: 16:53

There's been lately there's been two lines of thought of that one time or all the speaking groups are getting Yes, take those go on social media and tell people what your goal is, and, and they'll make your own and other people are saying, you know, that's the most dangerous thing you can possibly do. Because people who don't understand you or you can get into it, keep your goal private, close to your chest. Which one do you fall on? That?

Chelsea Jones: 17:13

Depends on the goal. I guess, I think that if people are posting on social media, I think it's really important that we're posting our successes as well as our failures. So if you don't, if you put something on social media to keep you accountable, and if you don't make it, that's okay, you have to be okay with that. And hopefully the people that are around you are okay with that, and aren't going to judge you and are going to help cheer you on and lift you up. I think that social media is really interesting how as a society, especially with COVID, in terms of connection and expressing themselves, or venting, or, or being accountable for goals, it's some people need to do it in that that way, post something on Facebook or posted on on Twitter, what they're thinking, and I think that's okay, I think it's just different and what we're looking at now in the 21st century with technology and how we interact. So I think it's kind of each to their own. I like to talk about it. Usually, I'm pretty excited about my goals in my endeavors. And it's hard for me to keep quiet about it. So I'm always chatting.

Mark Laurie: 18:17

So you've got a process for short term goals, the long term goals, the harder one for people to stay excited about how do you? How do you keep that interest going? Do you have to build up for it? Or what? What's your process to keep a long term goal and focused and excited?

Chelsea Jones: 18:33

Honestly, it's a combination of a lot more smaller term goals and baby steps and small steps along the way. And I think that's really important. The more you break something down, the less overwhelming it feels, and the less overwhelming it is, with patients. I use the example of a messy office. Normally, you'd walk into the office, open the door and go, Oh, and shut the door and leave it messy for six months, because you're overwhelmed. But if you make a list, break down what the steps to that office cleaning task are and think about what are the priorities? What needs to be done before other things? How long will each of these micro goals take? then it turns out that Hmm, you could actually clean that office in two hours, and you've been putting it off for six months.

Mark Laurie: 19:19

The price you pay, right? Yeah. Now photographers, creative people, they, I use the term chaos, like so in my mind, the way creativity works, is you start with all the options you could possibly have in front of you. And it's just nothing but chaos. And slowly you start to make choices and options disappear, then you know, second you decide to use red, suddenly blue greens, Capcom the photograph and so on, you start to make these kinds of choices for it. And at some point, creativity comes very, very organized. How do you find photographers are creatives work with that system that that chaos initially? Is there a path or that or do you think it's an important element in your process? It's a good question.

Chelsea Jones: 20:00

I think that when you're narrowing things down in the creative process, the nice thing about photography, and I think part of the reason I was drawn to it is because it is technical and kind of science faced and I'm actually not as Super like, I can't draw. I can't paint. I am not an artist. I don't think of myself as an artistic person. Yeah. So I can create this imagery and a camera, and I don't actually need any, like hand eye coordination that way in skill, right? So I think that first you narrow it down by, okay, what are my options? What do I have here in my environment? Now? What decisions do I need to make in terms of lighting? What positions Do I need to make? Or what does it decisions do I need to make in terms of posing? How do I create a connection here? And once you kind of figure out the technical aspect, then you can go, Okay, let's let's add a gel or let's let's think about the creativity. So I think I start very technical, and then I narrow it down in the creative vt. And what makes it unique or what makes it popular? What makes it different? I kind of answered at the end. With creative shoots, I'm actually pretty methodical as well. I like to draw things poorly, draw things out and sketch in my books and plan. And it Yeah, yeah, usually I have a vision or I see everything and how I want it to look. And then I go to my notebook.

Mark Laurie: 21:22

That's, well, there's a photographer, I knew a brilliant, intuitive photographer, he had a cycle of chaos to organization. And so he had placed the mast so it goes in, he ties it up. So all super organized. And then as he photographs, he puts pieces down and the clutter starts to come out, right. And then it reaches a point where it's just can't find anything and he has to clean up again. And his repeat clients have learned if they come in the middle, where it's not too tidy, but not too disastrous. He's in his creative best. There's this, this midpoint of chaos and I, I just I thrive in chaos as most my most favorite place to be. Because it's it's it's full of so much possibilities. And I can get kind of above and I can see this realm. And part of it's always sad because as soon as you start making choices, the chaos disappears. And so I always hang on to a little bit of chaos that that I can be aware of that I can inject or take advantage of some. I'm always floating, aware of spice that can be added in so that makes sense.

Chelsea Jones: 22:28

I really like that. It's not chaos. It's possibility.

Mark Laurie: 22:32

Yes, there you go. I'm

Chelsea Jones: 22:33

Look at you the optimist.

Mark Laurie: 22:35

Oh, yeah, I live for I it's that's my my philosophies. And I kept this for my mom, I think is in sometimes people like the world. And it's most of the meetings it means like from headlines trying it, I swear, as it's going to go to hell in a handbasket. As the old saying goes, my mom would say, if you ever want Faith in the Future, go to any grade 12 graduation course. The people that come out of there see nothing but the joy for what's gonna happen that otherwise they would be depressed. But I went back and forth and it dawned on me that's what what mums are like newborns, like a mother. So protective, is not going to bring a child into this world that they think is a doomed world. Like their instincts, this wouldn't kick into. So motherhood by its very nature is a future suggests. glowy future that's that's the belief of it. If that makes sense

Chelsea Jones: 23:24

the possibility. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Laurie: 23:28

So you got furry dogs too.

Unknown: 23:30

Yes, I have my two my two, four kids, I guess. Vincent Mick Patrick Jones or Vinnie for short. And Nikita, danger. Jones. And what? Nikita danger Jones danger, Joe? Yeah. We've had Vinny for nine years and Akita I believe for 10. And then we just lost bear in February. And I've had him since 2009. I believe so almost 12 years before I had my husband

Mark Laurie: 24:02

Does having a pet alter your life. Like that's a lot of demands out there. How do you find a pet? Rich, you are not rich? You?

Chelsea Jones: 24:10

I absolutely love dogs. I love animals. In my path to here I've been very involved in animal rescue and I was one of the cofounders of the greater Edmonton Animal Rescue society or gears. Yeah, I yeah, dogs are great. We don't deserve them. I think that it's the place I was in my life. When I had bear come into my life in 2009. I was a student which is tough with a puppy I may maybe not recommend it. But I mean, if you're accountable to something else, right? And they are Oh, speaking of dogs, no. Get you up in the morning. You have to make sure that you're thinking about them. Even when they're not behaving Yeah, I just soulful eyes. And the bear was just so fiercely, absolutely loyal. And he just just loves people. And yeah, they're just amazing him and Nikita were actually animal assisted therapy dogs as well. And bear worked at a women's shelter here in Edmonton for, I think, almost 10 years. And he was so good with the kids and the kids just loved him.

Mark Laurie: 25:26

that that happened as part of your process. I mean, that they didn't come in at all. This is my secondary job here. My my first job. How did they get involved in that?

Chelsea Jones: 25:36

Oh, you know, everyone just said to me when I was in ot school, like wow, your dog, he would make a really good animal assisted therapy dog. Maybe that's something you could use in your practice leader. And I haven't used it in my specific practice yet. But yeah, we got certified and he just had the right temperament. And he would play soccer with the kids. And just she chased the ball, they thought he was playing soccer, or my favorite was we play What time is it, Mr. Bear, I put like a treat right here by my ear. And I leaned down, and then of course, he licked the treat, and I go, he said, it's 10 o'clock. And the kids think the dog is talking to me. And then lunchtime, we run around and run after the kids. And on the other hand, though, I mean, when when kids needed some, some mindfulness or some emotional regulation, he was very calm, and they would just scratch his belly or his head. And yeah, he was just just amazing. Nikita is not quite as empathetic and intuitive to that as bear. She's more food motivated. But yeah, it was an incredibly rewarding placement, working with them there.

Mark Laurie: 26:40

How do you balance like you almost have got to complete careers because photography, especially the way you approach it, and anybody who's who watches rather than listens to us can can see the the words in the background, and I know, I've got the master photographer, I've got 12 or 13 bars. With that. And there, they are hard to get in that confining as the bar gets risen each year. And it's it's just astounding. So you've got that happening, which is a full time profession and you've got your, your medical side, but how do you balance the two of those? Do you work with them evenly or is it sort of perks up inside, so how's that play out?

Chelsea Jones: 27:16

It kind of ebbs and flows. The last I'd say during actually COVID, in a way kind of happened at a at a time when I wasn't there was focusing more on the PhD and medical side of things. So photography was was not going to be as as apparent in society and everything. So it was kind of a good time to focus on the medical side of the house. Now, I mean, I have a bit of a break from that hopefully I can get more into the photography. It's it's a challenge for sure. I mean, I never have a day off. And and my husband has to do a lot of picking up the slack in terms of things around the house in the yard and pet care. And I'm so lucky that I have him as a absolute support and champion. And he just says to me sometimes that his worst fear is holding me back. But I mean, obviously, I have to make sure that that he's fulfilled in everything to write in a partnership, but it is a I feel like it's always a team effort. Like I'm not doing this by myself, I need to find some balance, and I'm tired and I need to need a break for sure. So I'm going to have to figure out where to put that. I also don't do a ton of shoots, I'm not shooting 20 weddings a year, I have a max at three because at one point, I would like to have a weekend. And I really at this point, have priced it so that I you know, I have a certain number of spots and the clients that I'm looking for are going to take those spots and I do a lot of repeat clients who kind of know my, my workflow and my chaos and are okay with it. And yeah, I try to just not shoot too too much really focus and give everything to the shoots that I do take.

Mark Laurie: 29:09

How do you work with pricing for photographers something that challenges here, you've got this professional side, that it's a very world real world type of thing. And you've got this photography world, how do you price, the quality of your photography, the kind of process you go through for self value?

Chelsea Jones: 29:25

Well, I mean, you know, I think about how much money minimum wages and I think about in terms of this point with my photography, I've been in it for 10 years now and I've taken a ton of courses, I do have some awards. I do have some niches where other people don't have those those niches and it's harder to find. So at this point, I wouldn't value myself as a minimum wage photographer. I don't think any photographer ever should value themselves as a minimum wage photographer. But you have to think about paying yourself you have to think about your equipment, your insurance, all the little things that maybe at the Time the art doesn't feel like it's costing you when you click the button, but every time you click the button, it has value and it has a cost. Of course, there's the product cost and the websites and everything else, too. But you need to make sure that you're really covering all of everything. There's so many people who are getting into photography as a business. And I mean, technically, as soon as you exchange money, you are a professional photographer. But the goal is to be a professional photographer, long term, not short term. And as soon as someone needs a new lens, or a new camera, or something breaks, that person's photography, business could be over if they're not pricing appropriately, or they're just shooting and burning. So people really have to think about the business side side of things.

Mark Laurie: 30:47

That's why I was so strong about that. So coming to the convention is coming up in November, I've got a whole track, that's just one business, which is really easy for it. So it's pretty good. Your, your value. So the thing that makes artists different than somebody else, like if you have a job someplace guy says yeah, so this job is worth $25 an hour out. Photographers, it's like okay, so what do you think your creative vision is worth? The find someone to pay for it. And for most artists, it doesn't have to be photographers, like any kind of art. We have a an inconsistency, where we don't die, because it's so easy. Like when we're good artists, you just step up and you create this thing. And you think Well, yeah, that was no effort. I just did that. You know, if I feel bad charging for it, how do you how's that shaped your self worth? Because I feel successful photographer has to go inside and say, what's my self worth? How does the photography given you a better perspective of yourself worth?

Chelsea Jones: 31:52

I think it's definitely increased it. And it's increased as I as I develop as a photographer, and in my business. I mean, I've worked really hard on accreditation, and I've worked really hard on on my competition images, and I work really hard for my clients. And that is what puts me apart from the next, you know, another photographer they have made have their own successes and accolades and everything, too. But I mean, I come with my own unique path and my own unique value and perspective. And I mean, people need to compensate for that for any photographer, right. And if someone specifically comes to me for a job, and they've chosen me to do that job, whether it's based on what they've seen on my, in my portfolio, or they feel that our character, gender, personalities, just gel, whatever it is, there's a reason that you've been chosen for that, that job. So you need to make sure that you're you're compensated for that.

Mark Laurie: 32:49

communicate your creative vision with each of your clients, what's what's your pattern to get that across,

Chelsea Jones: 32:56

really depends on the client. Some clients, they need a little more of a methodical approach where we're sitting down again, I'm sketching terrible sketches in my book, or we're going through other images on Pinterest or in my portfolio for what they are looking for. I'm also really realistic about if they have something that you know, it's never going to be exact. And there were very specific conditions that that photo on Pinterest was taken under and, you know, I can't make the snowfall like that on that day, those types of things. But, you know, I have a lot of repeat clients who sometimes are just like, don't care, you do your thing. We're we're always up for some adventure, and we trust you. And that's so much fun. It's it's super rewarding and honoring that people give me that much credit and have that kind of faith in me. But yeah, it like you said before that creativity gets to come out and you get to play. So it's fun.

Mark Laurie: 33:56

One of the things I found my clients through seminars are 40 plus years now, they come in, they say, Well, whatever you want to do, I think something will will turn on creatively. But I can be creative in pretty much any direction. You want dark and Moody, you want bright and cheery. You want something abstract. And making it for me is dangerous, because the likelihood you're gonna like my personally evolved taste is pretty thin. And so how do you bridge that for the client says, Yeah, you just do your own thing? Because they're saying do your own thing in a way that I'm going to like, what they're really saying our thing? Clearly. Yeah, yeah. What is your process to find out what they like? So when you do your own thing, you're doing it under their terms of reference. Does that make sense?

Chelsea Jones: 34:35

Yeah, totally. I always ask out and one thing I like to figure out what right from the beginning is what is the purpose of these photos? What do you plan to do with these photos? Is it just for social media, which I usually try to convince them to print a product I'm big on prints and things and my pricing is set up to make people more likely to do that as well. Is it an album you want? Is it wallart? Is it some other special project is at a specific event you need the photography for. And then also, what have you had for photography in the past for maybe your family or for your headshots, and sometimes I like to see those and I get people to tell me what they like about it, or what they don't like about it. So that kind of gives me a little bit of an idea. If people a lot more people come with Pinterest boards and things like that to now which, you know, can be good and bad. Like I said before, I mean, sometimes they come with something that it's, it's, it's, you know, you can't just pull it out of your hat, you can't just make that right, they had 12 lights in a desert for that image. And I live in Edmonton. But other times, you kind of get like a, like a vibe, and they kind of have a mood board, and you kind of can figure out a little bit what they're getting for or going for. And this is gonna sound bad. But the other thing is, and even in the time of social media, and when you can google the name, everything, you know, everything on a person pops up. Google your client. Because honestly, like that might give you some information too. But what they what they do, what they're into, who they hang out with, and what you know, like, sometimes that can give you some information about the client as well. Google yourself, you never know what's going to come up. But yeah, so I mean, just sometimes getting some information on your client can assist sometimes they'll give you that information, but a lot of people they say whatever you want, I don't know what I want.

Mark Laurie: 36:30

You got an impressive array of talents and points of view. What would you say is your best trait? When did you think this is my golden trait? There's this mountain of traits. This one's at the top? Um,

Chelsea Jones: 36:48

I don't know. So you know, a lot of times people say oh, I wish I had your your ambition and your drive. And I think that I often say that might be my greatest strength and my greatest weakness. So that's kind of a double edged sword. Yeah, I am a very ambitious person. And I like we talked about goal oriented I always got to be be moving and and trying something new, trying to get myself to a next level.

Mark Laurie: 37:11

And trust me because ambition and goal oriented to me aren't the same thing. Ambition often has a bit of an overtone it and in terms of which you're ambitious for like it's a, it's a it's a driving force that's not always kind of healthy. The nature of our society sort of shift over goal setting and saying that's where I want to go to is, is is a different thing. How do you see those two together? Do you see ambition as something that can be a dangerous thing? Or is a necessary thing?

Chelsea Jones: 37:39

I think both I think that everyone needs to have some values and things that are important to them and being able to have that drive to get what you want and need in life. I think that's that's a good thing if we didn't have any ambition. I don't know if we get up in the morning so even though it hasn't it has those those overtones, I think it is not necessarily a totally negative term or connotation. I'd say that Yeah, you're right. Goal setting and ambition are two different things. I use goal setting as a way of achieving the things I ambitious for I am ambitious for will say. But yeah, I mean, people can be too focused and too ambitious. And that's how you you know, you end up with too many things on your plate, which is where I am a lot of the time. But yeah, I'd say that, that it's good and bad. I guess the other thing too is I really care about making change in making things better for the next generation in society making things more equitable and and fair and accepting. And that's really something that I hope to, to work towards in my career, both photography and as a as a clinician. And with my research,

Mark Laurie: 39:00

yeah. So I remember, there is a writer is talking to a two at the time he was a giant architect and what he had accomplished, and he was dying bad. He called this this writer in and the writer asked the question, he said, so what do you What's your regret? Looking back and he goes, and he done some biggest dream landscapes. You can imagine the guy goes I didn't dream big enough. I really wish I'd dreamt big enough. That is so wild project yourself for the future. Looking back. What is the biggest thing you'd like to accomplish when you sit back and have it on your tombstone goes Yes, this girl did this thing. What would that be? Um

Chelsea Jones: 39:41

That's a really good question. It's funny all of this going on and I hope that on my tombstone, it says, you know, she was a cared about animals and humans and was a good wife, daughter friend. So I don't know maybe I need to police my ambition in those things a little more. But yeah, I guess At the end of the day, I hope that did was that she created some change and made things a little bit better.

Mark Laurie: 40:06

That's cool. What trait Do you wish you had you look back and go, Oh, there's the hole in my wall.

Chelsea Jones: 40:13

Chill. I have no chill, my husband would say,

Mark Laurie: 40:17

That is an interesting phrase, "I have no chill" I like that

Chelsea Jones: 40:22

my mom says that her biggest regret is that she didn't teach me how to relax and be a little more mindful. I do it. It's funny. I teach mindfulness and meditation like in my career, but But yeah, I have a really hard time, especially lately winding down my brain and being mindful and in the here and now and not thinking about what I have to do next, or what's coming up in my calendar. So I think that that is a skill that I think I had at one point, but I definitely have lost it in the last few years. And I need to get that back for for longevity for long term physical and mental health. I need to relax better.

Mark Laurie: 41:02

Where's your degree gonna take you your doctorate?

Unknown: 41:05

It's, it's interesting. So I'm doing a postdoctoral fellowship with the Leiden University at the Leiden Medical Center in the Netherlands. Right now it's virtual, because of COVID. But next spring, during tulip season, I'm planning to go visit there and hopefully do some postdoc work. Right now it's very much focused on trauma affected populations, including veterans, public safety personnel, which includes first responders, health care professionals, military members, and looking at novel treatments for for trauma and PTSD. So some of the ones that we're looking at include virtual reality. And seconds psychedelic assisted psychotherapy. So, for example, they're looking at MDMA, and cildosybin, or what's the compound that's commonly the who has an agenda in in mushrooms. So it's really, really interesting, what they're looking at. And with some of the virtual reality, which is what I'm most acquainted with, we're seeing some really good results.

Mark Laurie: 42:14

You're kind of a cutting edge girl like this is pretty front edge technology that you're playing with. It's how you see it, are you just so immersed in it becomes every day,

Chelsea Jones: 42:21

it becomes every day. And you know, it's funny. So when you asked me to do this podcast, I had to actually ask my cousin, like, how does a podcast work? What's a podcast? Everyone's always telling me like, like, you should listen to this true crime podcast. I'm like, I'll get on that. And then I'm just like, secretly, like, I don't know what that is. So I wouldn't say I'm a super techie person, it just kind of I don't know, yeah, it becomes your every day, I still, you know, cat program a VCR but can do psychotherapy in a virtual reality environment. So so it doesn't transfer over necessarily.

Mark Laurie: 42:56

That's interesting that the stuff that we celebrate when I start off teaching photography, I teach internationally. And remember my first teaching gig I came in, I was the young, youngest guy in the room. I've been doing photography for a couple of years and was winning awards. And I was I was the bad boy in the black like something that kids are. And I did this one thing that saved my bacon, I said, Look, I know a whole bunch of stuff. And then two seconds over, I'm an idiot. And then I'm brilliant again. But there's these these huge value gaps I'm I'm bootstrap trained as opposed to school trained, right. And of course, we built our studio my time I did understand the physics involved of the studio. And they had a garage as opposed to slow room I was in and I took the shutter, I had a photograph, I did not recognize it, and were seen anything like it before with the way light worked. And they fixed. And I just I've always marveled at these these slivers where you get very deep in something like your, your, you know, ritual reality, and then you go over to sec and people go, how can you not know how to program a VCR when you deal with that stuff?

Chelsea Jones: 43:56

Totally. And I think like with with a PhD, that's what it is. It's just like, people are like, you must be good at math. And it's like, No, I know how to do a very specific subset, different type of math, like just that one. But don't ask me to, like, do other statistics or you know, like, it's just like, you know, a lot about a very small, small area. So yeah, I joke that I'm still I'm still not life smart for a lot of things, that's for sure.

Mark Laurie: 44:23

Do you have any quotes sayings that drive you or that you resonate with? Um,

Chelsea Jones: 44:31

I like you know, it's kind of cliche, but something like she said she would so she did. Or, yeah, I'm just kind of not sure. There's kind of, I guess, go getter kind of quotes, cheesy ones that I see on memes and on Pinterest and Instagram and stuff like that. But sometimes I'm just like, get her done and little things like that. And that's kind of my my internal self talk. Vegas. Yeah, that's it.

Mark Laurie: 45:01

I had a weather last the grill before you actually we did the podcast with Sarah draft. And she's the same kind of bundle stuff. She's a sheetmetal worker. And she's trying volver photographer in a model with it, and single mom a whole bunch of stuff. And so I asked her like, what's your? What's your rally cry? And that was like, get her done? Yeah, yeah, whatever is in front of you plow through it? How do you see obstacles? Do you see them as something to go up around over or through?

Chelsea Jones: 45:30

Depends on the obstacles, I always think of it as a barrier. And and this is I mean, an occupational therapy, fisting as well, you look at your facilitators and your barriers, you maximize one and you minimize the other. So if you see a barrier, or hurdle, what are the strengths you can can leverage to deal with it, sometimes it is pushing through it. And getting to that that end, other times it might be going a different direction, and it's a fork in the road, and it changes that path. But I think I try to think of it as strength based and let your strength strength dictate how you're going to deal with that, that barrier.

Mark Laurie: 46:11

It's cool. I one of the coaches, I had feels, you know, when your confidence is huge. So he said, if you're confident, a roadblock or a mountain becomes a molehill, and as a speed bump, and if you're not confident become this mountain set, is that how you see things too?

Chelsea Jones: 46:27

I think so I think part of it too, is is sometimes it will be the failure, right? And that's okay. shrug your shoulders keep moving, right? different different direction or something else, right. I think that too many people are afraid of failing, failing. And I mean, failure is how you learn failure is how you get successes. We need to fail to learn what we like, what we don't like, what we're good at what we're not what we're not good at now. But what we still value and what we want to be good at later. I see a lot of that in photography, I have failed at accreditation so many times I know I can relate. Yeah. So I mean, that success rate, the being able to put yourself out there and fail and and not be ashamed of your failure that success

Mark Laurie: 47:12

is one of the mimes I love quotes, I got a cool book I read every day, I go, if you if you hit my Pinterest feed, I've got a quote section to it. You'll see someday as I sit down and just pull these things off, there's actually a whole section on photography quotes. One of the ones that I think is really powerful is, is a quote, this is this is not how many times you fall down or fail. It's how many times you get back up. And as long as you get back up one more time, then you fail. you're successful 100% I kind of like that with the other one that I got this one really long. So I've always got coaches and teachers with me. And he says, if you're not prepared to fail, you can't really win big. And he goes the other very, you look at all the we tend to look at people who've risen up like the movie star, the golfer, sports person, musician, and they're like, wow, they just walk on stage and seven out of nowhere, because we haven't been following them. They have achieved greatness. And the guy says, you know, no one was watching them when they did it badly for the first you know, 1020 times when they they went out into their, you know, a movie that just was horrendously bad. And they were one of the bad elements in it. kind of thing for it. And then suddenly, people Oh, you've arrived at this overnight greatness. It took you 10 years to get there.

Chelsea Jones: 48:29

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. I think the big thing is having that courage and it really is courage to put yourself out there the first time you become your customer that I you know, yeah, I I'm I see when I'm doing like accreditation or mentoring and photography that people are so afraid to put themselves out there, especially with competition or accreditation. And it's funny because like, it's all anonymous, like the judges don't know who made that image. And that's something that I actually kind of hid behind a little bit. Initially so so Chris Toombs, who's another photographer in Edmonton, and actually he is has ties to the military as well. I used to put in military imagery because I knew if it sucked they just think it was Chris and it worked really well I could hear people talking in the in the room Oh, that must be Chris's and I'm just like But yeah, I mean people don't even know whose face or who belongs to the image you really have nothing to lose in that respect and even if your name is attached to it, who cares like try your best to put it out there and you know that at the beginning you're not going to you know suddenly be great right?

Mark Laurie: 49:40

Now when I started having this for 40 years way back cuz my niche has always been names and women and so got to the point that if any news cuz no one else was doing it really there was a couple people do it that came up they go oh, that's gonna be Mark entry and again. There was no way to hide by anything back since they started fooling around stuff sounds good. Yeah, yeah. For sure this has been such a delight. I've always hate running out of time because it's been so interesting but thank you so much for your conversation they it's been really enlightening.

Chelsea Jones: 50:09

Thank you for having me and you're gonna have to tell me how to like look at the podcast later

Mark Laurie: 50:16

as well. I will I will be some links in the in the information stage down below. A bit more of Chelsea's bio and links we can see her work, which is really worth seeing. It's pretty amazing. And some of her credentials of where she's worked out. It's been just great. So thank you for your time again today and everyone else. We'll see you next time.

Exit speaker: 50:36

This has been fascinating women with Mark Laurie. Join us on our website and subscribe at fascinating women dossier fascinating women has been sponsored by inner spirit photography of Calgary, Alberta and is produced in Calgary by Lila's and my office media.