Laurie Gilbertson - inspiring woman, former lawyer- coach - clear sighted woman

introduction: 0:06

You're listening to fascinating with Mark Laurie. And now, our Lord.

Mark Laurie: 0:14

Hello everyone. My name is Mark Laurie and you're listening to fascinating women. We have a lot of fun with this podcast. Normally I spend my time photographing incredible women doing exciting things for themselves or gifts. But today I get to filter to photograph the talk to Lori Gilbertson. She has an amazing background. She's kind of moved up from lawyer legal stuff into doing things for the movie industry as a consultant. And now she has her own business, which is communication. And we're gonna fill in some of those blanks about what how she got there. And welcome, Laurie,

Laurie Gilbert: 0:52

thank you so much for having me. Mark's

Mark Laurie: 0:54

gonna be delightful. Yes. So you had a long an interesting journey, but mostly in the same field of illegal ease world. Is that correct?

Laurie Gilbert: 1:02

That is correct. Yeah, I grew up in a family of lawyers. My father is a litigator, he is now 80 years old. And although he could have retired years ago, he's still going. So I had a pretty incredible example. And there were lots of arguments around the kitchen table. And I really learned how to be an advocate for myself and for the ideas that I believed in. And not surprisingly, that led me to law school. So my very first day in my criminal law class in law school, I was hearing the stories from the professor about, you know, there, there really is nowhere in the law. But the stories I think are more compelling than in criminal law, and all these crazy things that happen. And then also the idea that there's so much just these lofty concepts of justice involved. And that very first day, I was hooked, and I knew this is what I want to do. And yeah, that's where my journey took me to becoming a prosecutor in New York City. And that's where I spent the majority of my legal career.

Mark Laurie: 2:06

I keep on thinking of Law and Order keeps on coming.

Laurie Gilbert: 2:10

Oh, of course. What are they? I think it's 20, what, 20 25 years, they've been going

Mark Laurie: 2:18

offshoots, they're kind of fascinated with them. Just talking, but I always get fascinated people's childhood, because I think that's where it shapes them. So your your parents are always in law when you were growing up?

Laurie Gilbert: 2:29

Well, my parents, my mother, kind of, you know, dragged into it just by having to listen to my father talk about all his cases. And my father is a patent litigator. So you know, the most kind of arcane and technical engineering concepts are interesting to him. But not always, to the rest of us, and certainly not always my mother. But yes, my my father, you know, who I greatly admire, was an engineer, he was an electrical engineer by training, and then worked in the patent office, then went to law school at night, and became a litigator. So I kind of always grew up with this image of this very hardworking, self made, you know, intelligent, creative person. And it was something I really grew to emulate.

Mark Laurie: 3:18

That's fascinating, because that's, we all have a start someplace, like we have to have our heroes and it's cool that clearly your dad is was one of your primary heroes, to how it works with it. Was he did you automatically I want to be what my dad was? Or did you kind of do as you grow up different ventures?

Laurie Gilbert: 3:37

Yeah, different. Different ventures? For sure. I'll say that, you know, my, my dad has always been one of my heroes, as has my mom. So you know, we can talk about Bob a little later, too. But yeah, you know, the interesting thing is I, you know, grew up as a very free thinker, very independent. And so when I graduated from law school, I knew that I wanted to be a criminal prosecutor in New York City. That was the job I wanted. That was the city I wanted, that was where I was going to be. And that was what I was going to do. And my dad said to me, why are you doing that? You know, you could go to a law firm, make a whole lot more money, it doesn't really matter, the kind of law. And you know, you asked, Did I want to do exactly what he did. I don't have the capability to be an engineer and be a patent attorney, that is way beyond me. You know, what I wanted to do was to work somewhere where I felt like every single day, I had the ability to make someone's life a little bit better, in in a small way, or a big way for people that were really kind of either entangled in the criminal justice system, were the victims of crimes, you know, and just making their way through the maze of the system to try to get some justice for them in their families. And so when my dad said just go to a law firm, I thought, yeah, I don't want to do that and wait 10 years to get to try a case. I want to be in there. Now. You know that instant gratification. I want to start my work Now and so that's what I did.

Mark Laurie: 5:02

So, so what was your so you start off as a prosecutor or

Laurie Gilbert: 5:05

right? Yeah, that was yeah, I started off as a at the Queens County District Attorney's Office, which is the one of the largest boroughs. I think they met that in Brooklyn where the largest boroughs at the time in New York City, and started with a class of about 30 other people, as an assistant district attorney, and they throw you right in. So you know, right after you get about a month of training, right, you are in court representing, you know, the people of the state of New York. And that's a pretty, it's a pretty heavy thing to go in. And

Mark Laurie: 5:43

so, I mean, is there education before, like, you hit some legal school before that, then you start in that stage? Or you just walk up and say, hey, I want to be in?

Laurie Gilbert: 5:52

No, you know, once I had gone through three years of law school, okay, yep, I then did a clerkship where I worked with, with two judges for two years. So I got some more training, being in the courtroom and seeing how things work and how you resolve cases and learning to write you know, very well and, and learning to deal with the different issues that would come up, and then pass the bar, you know, for New York City was then had to be licensed to practice, come into the office, and you know, a lot of it is you do get that kind of hands on training for about a month is how we were doing it, then you get ongoing training, you know, lectures, different classes. But a lot of it was kind of what they say, you know, trial by fire, you just get thrown in. And, you know, there you go, you'd start working. And because you start on the cases and things that are much lower level, you know, you start on a shoplifting case, you don't start on the homicide

Mark Laurie: 6:50

But I saw them on TV, that's what they do,

Laurie Gilbert: 6:54

is really interesting. And I just have to say you said in the beginning that I was working as a consultant for movies, I have now worked as a consultant for movie's, although that would be a blast. You know, but I do do a lot of work in the media and media training for my brands so that they can kind of get out there and put their best selves forward. And I also did work in television for quite a bit in New York.

Mark Laurie: 7:17

So that is cool. So what did your mom bring to your personality?

Laurie Gilbert: 7:21

Oh, wow. You know, you get Wow, you just get deep with this right away. I think we're seven minutes in and you know, I, I think for my life, I have probably spent a good bit of my life emulating my father in the work world and my mother at home, okay. My mother is, is just an amazing person, she is empathetic, and caring, and kind. And had very strong ideas about how to raise us, I come from a family of four, two boys, two girls, and I'm the oldest. And my mother always wanted to raise children who were very independent thinking and who wanted to, you know, and taught us we could do anything, you know, we could, she wanted us to go out in the world and just be whoever we wanted to be no matter what that was, you know, it wasn't you have to be a lawyer or you have to be a doctor, you have to follow a particular path. She's very open minded about that. And so I think she's brought some of that to me. You know, as well as I always tried to emulate her empathy, her compassion, her kindness. And she's also just funny, you know, she's just super smart. And, and funny. So I don't think I got that, you know, I make a joke about you know, every now and then that I am funny, and my kids write it down and like, Okay, you're funny mom, six months later, you know, maybe it'll be funny again. But, you know, she was just so incredibly supportive all the time for my father, of course, and then for all of us kids in whatever path we wanted to take, and I hope that I've gotten some of that from them.

Mark Laurie: 9:12

I suspect you probably have what would be the the, the most effective techniques you would do to give you those kinds of skills.

Laurie Gilbert: 9:23

She always from from the time, we were, you know, from the time we probably even have language spoke to us as intelligent human beings. You know, she never spoke to us in baby talker, like, we were just, you know, kids and we couldn't be a part of things. She's always just open and honest. And I think that gets ingrained. You know, even as an adult if you don't remember it. I think there's something in you that when you feel that you are treated in a way as if you are a very valuable person, you start to feel like really valuable person. And the other thing she did, and my mother will tell this story is that she wanted all of us kids to say no, she, she wanted us to have that kind of critical thinking to say no. And she said that when I was about, I don't know, two or three, she asked me something or do something. And I said, No. And you know, most moms wouldn't like that. And she loved it. So I'm doing something, right. I'm raising my kids to say now,

Mark Laurie: 10:28

I just saw recently an interview with Tom Holland from the Spider Man thing. And he was talking about an education that he learned, and one of the things he picked up at this day, that seemed kind of late in the game, nonetheless, was that no is a complete sentence. I thought that was was a brilliant, brilliant kind of sexist. Now, one of the things we've encountered was that the the difference in conversation on the dinner table from I guess, less inspiring conversations where people are, are, are have got TVs more of the conversation than else. But the people who aspire to success, their dinner conversations are different. What were your like growing up your conversations around the table?

Laurie Gilbert: 11:08

Oh, gosh, you know, I think they, they continued to change, as you know, we were six of us and a family. So, you know, as everybody kind of grew up, they would constantly kind of change and get more interesting, depending on what people were doing. And, you know, there were a lot of conversations about current events, there were conversations that were about, you know, family and kind of things in our own family. And there, there was not really any topic that was off limits, there really wasn't, you know, politics, education, you know, went from that kind of very interesting kind of thing to maybe the mundane of, you know, what are we doing in school? And, you know, who's who might be in trouble for what? So,

Mark Laurie: 11:57

you'd mentioned that you'd learn to present yourself at your dinner tables, how did that come across?

Laurie Gilbert: 12:03

I'd say more, more advocate for myself, you know, when we would get, I don't mean to give the impression, you know, that every single night around the dinner table with some wonderful philosophical discussion, because I do recall, not all of it being like that, for sure. So not that, but the times that, you know, I think we would talk about current events, or, you know, I grew up outside of Washington, DC. So politics, that was the language, you know, I grew up in Junior High in high school, you know, being able to clearly name you know, every member of the cabinet, and probably there undersecretaries also, because that was just what we read about every day. That's, you know, some of what we would talk about in school, I went to school with people, you know, who were, you know, connected, everybody was connected in some way to politics in DC. So this was just the language. So there's a lot of conversations about political ideas, when I think sometimes, you know, we would disagree about things. So I learned to advocate, I learned that, you know, just because my dad was a really great lawyer and was used to killing it didn't mean that I couldn't have my ideas and put them right out there.

Mark Laurie: 13:18

Back and forth. All the conversations, I've had this the first time I've had someone talk about the advocating for yourself, I love that. Love that viewpoint, that terminology. And it's something that's three than you well, what would be the three beliefs that guide you, when you look inside and go this? These are the things my non negotiables are the things that get me places, what would they be?

Laurie Gilbert: 13:42

I would start with empathy, that I kind of lump them a bit together empathy, kindness and compassion, they're kind of different things. But I was, you know, in a profession, as a criminal prosecutor that is not necessarily considered empathetic.

Mark Laurie: 14:05

That is not the first word that leapt into my mind, not that stream of thought.

Laurie Gilbert: 14:11

work, yeah, you know, you're really thought of this kind of, you know, you know, badass in the courtroom, super strong, right? Always coming at people, you're going to put everybody in jail. And I mean, that's just not not how it works to be really good at it. So I think I tried to lead oftentimes with with empathy, with compassion with kindness, both professionally and personally. You know, I think that's what good relationships are built out of. So I give that as number one. I'd say another guiding principle for me certainly has been just the importance of family. Both my family growing up and now my own family. You know, and the importance have kind of stepping back from a career in a profession, not necessarily stepping back to not do anything, but stepping back to kind of get a good view of Emin a good perspective of really what your priorities are. And that has always really just come in there as something that's super important, you know, if I'm sitting around doing work, and my, my, as I was last night, and my son said, Mom, put away the computer, you know, I want to do this with you, I will get that moment back in front of the computer, I will never get that moment back, especially with a teenager, which is what I have three of them. So when they say, Mom, I want to spend time with you, you got to do it. Now. Right. And the last one that that comes in for me too, is really trying to be guided by a principle that there, there is no set path, that change is going to be a certain constant life. And trying to get somewhat comfortable with that. You know, I think when, in my life, I have fought that I had to go down a certain path. And perhaps it didn't work out that way. Being very narrowly focused, doesn't did not serve me being open to change and things that it could bring served me better. So especially now, in the world we're living in where, gosh, change has just become just what we live in breathe. You know, in living, you know, also in my career, where there's a lot of change. And in my family life, where I've got, you know, three teenagers who, you know, changes their middle name, everything's always changing for them. So that has been a, a third leap coming to my life is one I wish I had had a lot earlier. But I'm learning

Mark Laurie: 17:08

how long ago to step away from the courtroom.

Laurie Gilbert: 17:13

I left the prosecution world about 10 to 15 years ago, I didn't leave the law then. But I left that particular world, I went on to do some work with white collar crime, and worked with the stock exchanges in New York City doing some financial crimes. So I did that for a little bit. And then I went on, and I worked in legal education. So I was still working as an attorney, but I wasn't practicing in court.

Mark Laurie: 17:43

How did it feel to leave something that can that you built your career on.

Laurie Gilbert: 17:47

I'm very mixed. It felt great, because I was burnt out. So I was completely burnt out. I was sitting in court one day picking a jury for a very serious robbery case. And I thought I'm bored. Wow. And you should not be bored doing that. You know, it was I mean, I was focused and doing what I needed to but I thought this, this, I'm done, you know, I am just done. So it felt good to kind of leave and release that. There's a lot of stress, there's a lot of emotion, if you are an empathetic person, it can just eat you alive. It really can. It's a lot of pressure, and I just needed a break. So there was that, but it was a tremendous part of my identity. So it was hard to step away. And I missed it. You know, I stepped away and I didn't miss being in the courtroom. Right. But I missed the world of talking about cases, talking about trial strategy, you know, talking about, you know, different things lawyers should be doing in the courtroom, or what did this particular crime mean? Or who did this, you know, that, that the league, you know, the law hasn't figured out yet, but who do I think committed uh, so all of that stuff led me to try my hand at doing some legal analyst work. That's what I was just kind of at home one day and felt like I'd really miss sitting around talking about all this stuff like I used to do with my colleagues. So let me do a little networking, get myself on television, then I can talk about it with other people on TV. So that that did ameliorate some of the difficulty in kind of giving up that part of it.

Mark Laurie: 19:35

That was a TV part of your world. Is your TV doing legal? legal work did you do on TV?

Laurie Gilbert: 19:41

Well, I started doing some commentary on Court TV. And the wonderful thing about Court TV back then was they didn't do stuff in sound bites, they would have you on for about two hours, and you would watch a case that was going on so if you know the OJ case was going on. That's what we watched and we commented on it. If there were other cases going on, that's what we watched. And we commented on. So for me, it was kind of like, oh, this is what I used to do at work. I'm just happened to be doing it with a camera and they made me look pretty. So

Mark Laurie: 20:18

kind of going like a sportscaster booth, like the color of this forecast. Okay, the gun, the jerseys. I just kind of flashed in my kit

Laurie Gilbert: 20:25

Mark it was a little bit of color and play by play. You got it? You got exactly the right image.

Mark Laurie: 20:31

Great. What quotes guide you inspirational quotes that you come across and go, Oh, that means something to that resonates?

Laurie Gilbert: 20:41

Yeah, here's, here's one that is one of my all time favorites. And this is from Howard Thurman, who was a civil rights leader and an educator in the US, and he tried to get this wording Correct. What he said was, Don't ask what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive? Because what the world needs are more people who have come alive. Oh, that's,

Mark Laurie: 21:05

I've never heard that one. That is really nice. I really like that. It's, we do if once you find your passion, in so much diversity, and it becomes both easy and exciting, because there's nothing like dealing with a person who's got passion. Yeah. Just it just touches you.

Laurie Gilbert: 21:23

Wow, that's, that's one of my favorites.

Mark Laurie: 21:26

Do you have a second one? Or is that your lead course?

Laurie Gilbert: 21:28

Well, you know, there there is a Mary Oliver quote that is completely overused everywhere. But it's beautiful. You may know the one I'm thinking of, but it's beautiful. You know, which is you know, what are you going to do with your while you're one wild and precious life?

Mark Laurie: 21:44

Oh, that is good. Is that when it either? So

Laurie Gilbert: 21:48

it's it, you will see it among inspirational quotes on social media sometimes, but it is, you know, that really resonates with me, because I think we get especially in the legal field, especially among professionals who you would unlike what you do would not necessarily consider creative, although I consider law to be incredibly creative. And I try to bring that out in my clients who I work with. But you know, this is it just emphasizes the idea of just being present. You know, just just really looking at your priorities and what are you going to do? You know, what are you going to do that makes you feel alive, so you can kind of put that out in the world?

Mark Laurie: 22:32

What personality trait do you wish you had?

Laurie Gilbert: 22:36

Oh, gosh, I wish I wasn't a worrier. I am such a worrier doesn't do anything doesn't help anything. I wish I wish I wasn't bad. Um, and yeah, that's, that's the main one I wish I could be. And my kids would tell you they wish this to just a little more Zen, a little less Taipei a little more. So I'm trying to meditate. I do have a meditation practice. I even started a group for lawyers of meditation practice, like I'm, my brother actually does that for a living. He is a trainer. He's a meditation and mindfulness expert. And I just tried to bring all his Zen to me, because people don't even believe we're related.

Mark Laurie: 23:26

So what is the best advice you've ever received?

Laurie Gilbert: 23:32

Oh, gosh. I could tell you about what I think is the best advice I received that I didn't take, have a band. That's what that work. Okay. And I And on that note, I'd encourage people listening, you know, don't don't dismiss advice just because it did maybe doesn't resonate with you at the time, it might be the right thing. So when I was deep in the thick of working as an assistant district attorney, and I was doing the law and order thing, and I was in court every single day. And I was starting to feel really to the point of being burnt out that I had no idea what to do next. This was my dream job. Right now. I had no idea what to do next. And my mother said to me, why don't you take a sabbatical? Why don't you just take six months off? You know, they love you at work, they'll let you do it. So let your comeback and just take a breath you know, step back from work you're working so much. Take a breath. Enjoy yourself start talking to people start exploring and just kind of figure out what might be next for you. And I was so caught it just in that whirlwind you know, of, of working and working and working. I don't really mean take six months off like there'd be no paycheck there. You know, I wouldn't get what would I do with myself? Because I was such a workaholic at that point. And I did not take her twice. And it was really excellent advice. And I wish I had, I wish I had because I think I needed to. I can look back now and understand why I didn't have the time. Right. And it is something I did later. But I didn't know at the time that she gave it. And I thought it was when I look back. Now I think that's some of the best advice I ever have that

Mark Laurie: 25:20

when do you think a person who doesn't have someone telling them that? What do you think would be happening in their lives? It's they go, this is a moment, I should take a sabbatical. Like, how would they recognize because you clearly didn't take it when you should have but you did recognize the point later on. So what would be the moment where person could go? I'm gonna take Lori's advice and tickets.

Laurie Gilbert: 25:45

Yeah, I mean, there's two different kinds of thinking about a sabbatical, right one could be where you just need a break. And, and you're going to take a break and explore other things, you know, much like university professors do, or some other professions and you go off and you you know, maybe indulgent some things, you don't get a chance to take a vacation, all that and then you come back to your job. So that's one thing. So I guess at times, if you're really feeling like you love what you do, but you need to take a break. That's a great time. Mine was the second kind, where I knew I needed to make a change, but I didn't know how to do it. So I think if you are in a situation, where you feel like there's a need for some really big change, or some change at all, stepping out of the situation, is such that kind of sabbatical is such a good way to get perspective on it, and start to make this changes that, you know, I encourage people, you know, that I work with too, to make little changes, you know, small b, small baby steps. If you couldn't take a six month sabbatical, how about taking half an hour every day, and just doing something you love. There's a poet by the name of David White. He's a Welsh poet, I don't know if you know of him, who who's written some beautiful books, and he was working in the computer world. And he wanted to be a poet. And so he said, every day, I'm going to spend some time on my poetry, to try to make this dream come true. And so every day he did, and eventually, he got to the point where now they call him the corporate poet, he goes into various corporations, and he brings poetry, you know, to these environments where you would never think poetry would be it's really beautiful thing. His books are incredible. He writes all about work and identity. So he took a small sabbatical every day, into the world where he wanted to be. So I'd encourage that.

Mark Laurie: 27:51

That's called The Art of case. And by the way,

Laurie Gilbert: 27:54

the art of case beautiful.

Mark Laurie: 27:56

It started at first being notable in World War Two with Japan, and actually with with Americans did it when they were wrapping up for the war. And they made small changes in existing factories to create through war machine. And then in Japan they did small changes to bring up their culture and bring up their stuff back. And then it's now become quite a process to clean things after with any approach you want to work, which is kind of cool. What kind of things are you curious about now? What what makes you interesting are stuff that you look back on, where's that thread? Go? rabbit holes do go down.

Laurie Gilbert: 28:32

I'm a huge reader. Yeah, always have them. When I was little, I used to say like the, you know, the whole world could go up in flames around me when I'm reading. And that's still the case. So you know, I definitely go down the rabbit hole of various books and authors all the time. I love first novels, I often feel like you know, the author's pouring their heart and soul into that in a way that you don't always see and later Later work. So I will find an author I like and just go go go. Mostly fiction. But another kind of rabbit hole I've gone down in now that I am an entrepreneur and own a business is that whole world of business books, right? So I've got a stack, you know, yay, high that that I need to delve into. You know, another thing that I I've kind of really, you know, started learning about more is the field I'm in now. I have kind of translated all of my my threads of communication into now coaching others on communicating. My training was very real world. You know, being in a courtroom every single day being in front of juries, grand juries, judges, it was real world training, in addition to some classes, and then on television, also real world training. So I love just diving into to figuring out why the things that I do that work, and the things that I coach people on that work, why do they work? You know, why is it great to have a hook when you start a conversation or presentation? Why did you know I know it works, but why? So I like digging into the why of it. And, you know, almost putting together kind of my own, you know, my own education on that, to shore up all the real world training that I've had. So I have gone deep into that. And, you know, as we kind of talked about with the being more than, you know, meditation, and mindfulness has been a topic I've found really interesting. And so I have started practicing that as well as learning more about it. And learning more to the same thread. Why does that work? Why if I sit for 20 minutes with my eyes closed, and I let the thoughts come and go, Why do I feel so much better after? Why am I calmer? You know, why do I approach life in a better way, and make better decisions? And I love learning about why. So those are some threads.

Mark Laurie: 31:11

How did you because your corporate world, your legal world is quite diverse, quite different, what you're doing now? What was the, the change the linchpin and to kind of go, Okay, I'm gonna make this leap from, you know, paycheck and employ essentially, do the risk taking and Trump owner looking after people?

Laurie Gilbert: 31:30

Yeah, you know, it is, it is different in some ways, but the same in others, I have spent my entire career telling stories, and not telling them in the courtroom necessarily myself now, but I'm telling them in different ways and coaching and training people on how to tell them. So that thread, the thread of the storytelling and learning to be engaging and persuasive, that's still there. But yes, being an entrepreneur, my goodness, you know, you asked what, what traits I wish I had, and I'm going to go back if allowed to say, I also wish I was more comfortable with taking risks. I wish I was more of a risk taker, which I think I was more in the beginning of my career. And then as I got older and more established, you know, it makes sense that I wasn't as much. So I made that leap. I call myself sometimes the reluctant entrepreneur didn't set out to do it, right. I made that leap. Because about six years ago, my husband had a job opportunity in Denver. And it was one of those things where we kind of looked at each other and said, Oh, yeah, let's do that. Let's move let's move our three elementary school aged children, right, I'll quit my job, you'll start a new one to Denver from New York. And, you know, it was just one of those intuitive things that it just felt right. And we did it. And so there's something about a cross country moves, right. That really opens up your thinking. And I honestly didn't know what I wanted to do next. So as I, you know, I got my Colorado law license, I interviewed to maybe practice law. And as I continue to do these things, it really taught me like, I don't want to practice law anymore. You know, I'd make it halfway through the interview, and the recruiter, and I would look at each other and she, you know, they'd say, this isn't for you, right? This is so not for me, what do you want to talk about? Talk about something else. You know, it just I learned it wasn't for me. And so I, I couldn't find exactly what I wanted to do, that Job didn't seem to exist. So I made it. So I thought I'm gonna have to figure it out and make it myself. And I just started thinking, you know, these are the things I know how to do. I can learn how to run a business, I can start to build a community around me of other people who are doing this that I can learn from, and start putting myself out there. And so I did. The thread that also runs through as I looked back, and of course, when we look back, it makes more sadness, right. As opposed to when we're going through it is, you know, in every job, you know, regular non risk taking job that I had. I was an entrepreneur of sorts, you know, as a prosecutor, I had my own caseload, you know, I made those schedules, I decided what I was going to do, I figured out my plea bargains and my trials and all that. So I had kind of my own little area. You know, as a legal educator, I developed my my own slate of programs. You know, I was creative. Nobody was telling me I had to do a certain thing or not, I got kind of free rein on different projects and different things and hadn't, you know, my own little portfolio of things that I got to do, which was wonderful within a big corporation, and so had a little bit of practice. distilling it. But you're right, it is not the same. The risk is is so different. And so I think just a combination of all those things, and wanting to do something kind of like those quotes, wanting to do something that made me feel alive. You feel really good and felt like the right thing.

Mark Laurie: 35:20

Yeah, it's my mainstays always been I think I learned this long time ago is what wakes you up? Like, get you out of bed in the morning? Yeah, like, I'm still at the stage revenues for 40 The photography now for 42 years. I still get up, like, I can't wait to start the day and see what's gonna, what's gonna bring? What are you curious about now?

Laurie Gilbert: 35:40

Oh, gosh. I am kind of curious about, you know, where, where things are going? You know, I am, you know, certainly with business that's so interesting, I get to delve into all these different things that people are doing, I get to speak to entrepreneurs about companies that they're building, I get to have all these worlds open to me, that I never really got to see before. And that curiosity. I mean, that just really carries me. So I'm interested to see kind of how that goes. And, you know, a huge part now is my family. Yeah, I have these three teenagers who are just growing up and experiencing the world in a really interesting way. And I'm always just curious about, you know, well, of course, where they're going and what they're doing. It's always nice to know those things when they share. But just really what, what their lives are gonna look like, yeah, that really kind of fascinates me as, as I watched them, they're all in high school and think about their next steps. And I had an immense curiosity about that.

Mark Laurie: 36:50

So what's something you fail that just did not go as you want it to?

Laurie Gilbert: 36:56

Oh, goodness. Um, it is such a good question, trying to think about you know, there was there was a job I wanted, that I worked really hard to try to get, went through interview after interview after interview, and to the final interview, and you'll guess how this goes, didn't get the job. And at the time, you know, it was crashing, because I really thought my career had to follow a certain path. Right. But what I ultimately, you know, kind of learned from it. And it took a long time, long time, years to learn this was that, you know, I didn't need that job to be successful, that I could go on and do other things without having to have that particular job on my resume. And then it would still be okay. But at the time, you know, it felt like my world came tumbling down.

Mark Laurie: 38:07

How do you deal with that? Like, that's because you've clearly overcome that and have moved on to it. That's a skill that people love to know, what parts of your personality or tools did you use to kind of get through that? And then move on.

Laurie Gilbert: 38:24

I think with this particular one, I went through the stages of grief with it, you know, I mean, I really did, I think I, you know, took the rejects, I'll date myself at the time actually got a rejection letter wasn't an email, you know, I took it, I hid it in a drawer, and I pretended it didn't exist for a while. And then ultimately, you know, I just kind of kept moving forward into different things. And the irony is, by the time I had moved forward enough in my career, that I probably could have gone back and maybe gotten that job, right. I didn't really want it so much anymore. And I think the tools, you know, I mean, gosh, I was, I have to say I was not good at this. I was not resilient at the time. I was heartbroken. And the tools that I look back now, and this was many years ago. So it took many years to come to terms with with that is kind of what I was talking about before that I would encourage people and I try to do this, you know, with my kids and I tried to do it with with some younger lawyers who I mentor to understand that there is no one clear path there does not need to be, you know, careers don't need to look that way anymore. They can be circular. You can take a sabbatical, you can try something different. You know, there are so many different you know, ways of kind of bringing your skills and your experiences and your time talents into the world. And it's, it's good not to put them all kind of put all your eggs into one basket, you know, and let somebody else make a decision for you about your career or about anything. You know, I let that really affect too, I thought I was in the skills and abilities I had. I wasn't any different the day I got rejected, it's been the day before or the day after. And so having, you know, I think, especially for women having that confidence to know what you can do, and not giving other people power over it. But it has taken me many, many years to get there. So hopefully, maybe that will help people listening to make a quicker trip than I did.

Mark Laurie: 40:45

That'd be useful. What is the essence of women can acquire power? What is it a mental state is a financial state? Like where can a woman can sit back and say, here's, here's where I have my own personal power? How can they acquire that or improve it?

Laurie Gilbert: 41:04

Wow, that's too much time. Do you? Mean? Awesome. Okay, sound bite mark, get ready to bow that's, you know, that? That is? It depends on a lot of things. I mean, it depends on kind of power do you want to have, you know, as a woman, and what's important to you, you know, what, when I look at, you know, my mother, my you know, and it was certainly very different at the time that my parents were getting married and raising children, the kind of power My mother wanted, and she wouldn't have even thought of it as power was the comfort and ability to be able to stay home with her children, and to raise them in a way that was meaningful to her. And the freedom to do that. So she had that, you know, she was fortunate she had that she was able to do that. That's one type of power. You know, there's also a certain power in, you know, what do women want to play? Do they want to have the power for an education, you want to have the power to advance in certain fields? You wanna, you know, it is, you know, Colorado recently passed, Colorado aquarium now passed an equal pay for equal work law, so that all job descriptions in Colorado have to show the pay range. And that is a way of giving women power. So that when women are looking at where they want to go in their career, they are not going to end up hopefully being paid any less than a man applying for the same job. Because it's transparent. And it's out there. And it's the law. Yeah. So that's, that's a way of power. I mean, it it really depends on the kind of power you want to have. Yeah, you

Mark Laurie: 42:57

can set you just take it like that's the field for our people, as you can simply say, this is, this is why I have to say, This is my, my personal thing, a lot of the power I've discovered is comes from the word no, but that word you learn so early. It's if you have the power to say no, you have an immense amount of power, because you do that have to give yourself options and choices.

Laurie Gilbert: 43:19

Yeah. And the power to make those decisions. No is a decision. It is not an easy one for people. I think often people don't want to make a decision and not making a decision is kind of a decision. It is.

Mark Laurie: 43:34

I think a lot people get they get forgetful that if you by saying yes to everything you've you've charged to show, especially the CSS if you can't do and I've always that's always confused me by people saying yes, and they can't do it. And so it doesn't really get done, it just shuffles off. And I think if he just said no, then I could move on myself. And so it makes my life easier.

Laurie Gilbert: 43:54

So people find it hard to say no. No, I think they don't want to disappoint other people. Or they just don't want to give up on the option sometimes. Right? They have the option of something and they don't want to give up on it.

Mark Laurie: 44:09

Yeah, I love the chaos. And I always exist as in F my creativity exists. Of course, as soon as you start making choices, your creativity starts to disappear. And because you make decide this that all suddenly have these options that kind of feel down to well, this has been fascinating. I've had a delightful time with you.

Laurie Gilbert: 44:27

As have i There's a certain beauty and chaos, isn't there. Chaos, that is the wonderful creative place to

Mark Laurie: 44:35

the eye of the storm and it's this quiet place. And then you step into the chaos and that's when as you make decisions in chaos, the cost is appears. And yet there's a point where the cast is the most fruitful for an artist. And I use the term artist very loosely because like there's legal artists with what they do is creative. There's in every vocation walk of life, you have to make creative choices because that's All choices are created if you can do something with them. And so I just love the moment of chaos before it becomes overwhelming, but you may have a payment anyways, that's,

Laurie Gilbert: 45:09

you know, you are speaking my language. I don't think I've ever heard anyone verbalize exactly the way I feel about chaos in the way that you just did. So thank you for that. You're welcome.

Mark Laurie: 45:22

That is cool. Well, thank you for joining us, everyone. It has been a delightful conversation with Laurie. In the bio area, they'll have some links. Laurie is a great computer. Just tell us briefly what your job is like what you do now?

Laurie Gilbert: 45:35

Yes. Besides surviving everyday with three teenagers. I am a communications coach, trainer and Speaker I work with executives, entrepreneurs and trial lawyers to help them tell persuasive and engaging stories in the courtroom, the boardroom and on television.

Mark Laurie: 45:55

That is great. So all that's there and of course she can reach you from any point of view but her websites amazing. Thank you so much, Lori. It has been a delightful conversation. And goodbye everyone. See you next time.

Laurie Gilbert: 46:08

Thank you, Mark. It's been a pleasure.

introduction: 46:11

This has been fascinating women with Mark Laurie. Join us on our website and subscribe at fascinating women does he a fascinating women has been sponsored by inner spirit photography of Calgary, Alberta and is produced in Calgary by Leigh Ellis and my office media.